EU referendum

[willipp]

I've honestly no idea how to vote on this, i don't like being lied to and i know both sides are lying to me. Pisses me off

This is what frustrates me on this whole issue, there is no balanced view at all. Most arguments are just statements backed up by no facts, or facts that contradict it from the other viewpoint. Very difficult to make an informed decision when no one seems to know the pro's and cons of both decisions. Im almost at a point where I don't think the public should be voting on a decision that we are so poorly informed on.

 

[Metal Biker]

I've honestly no idea how to vote on this, i don't like being lied to and i know both sides are lying to me. Pisses me off

Just vote how you feel personally about the organisation of the EU itself.

I myself believed in Europe once, but am voting out for these reasons:

TTIP - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html (It is a 'scaremongering' post, but it does contain the same concerns I have about it and how the EU endorses it despite public criticism and opposition)

Secret plans for a United States of Europe already drawn up - http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/04/25...pe-deceleration-Britain-EU-Army-German-Dutch/

Formation of "EU Army" taking shape, annexing other member states armed forces personnel - https://next.ft.com/content/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173
(If link does not work, search for "Germany annexing Dutch military regiments".)

All EU countries must adopt Euro by 2020 - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be...ussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Cameron's reforms not yet accepted; will only be voted on until after referendum, only requires 8 states to vote against to be refused and which members are likely to do so - http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/europe-responds-to-camerons-eu-reform-proposals/

There are a number of other reasons aswell, but for me these are the main sticking points. I want the UK to join the EEA or EFTA at worst and am prepared to see Britain take some financial hit within the first 5 years if it means an end to the political union, but allows us to conduct trade deals with the other 160 or so countries as well as forming a trade deal with the EU, like Norway, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Iceland do and should after a while recover any immediate losses that resulted from leaving the EU. No-one can guarentee this as a certainty, though, but that's where the 'believe in Britain' rhetoric comes from, and I firmly believe this nation has the clout, determination and connections that will mean there will be no long term 'damage' to our economy or security.

Many in Europe want the Federal Europe and to do away with 'national identities' vis-a-vis the Soviet Union. Voices in Denmark and the Netherlands have stated that if Britain does leave, they want out of the EU as well. So at the moment there is no one side with a clear advantage in the debate and I can understand how annoyed about the whole discussion you can be considering how both sides have behaved. It could come down to yourself personally on whether or not you believe in the European Dream or stand by the idea of British self-determination.

 

[smudgedj]

The thing that is totally ignored by Brexitera is just how many companies in the rest of the EU are planning now and ready to try and replace the British goods that become too expensive with tariffs.

Meanwhile the British public is looking forward to replacing champagne with sparkling Colombian, Mercedes with Great Wall and French and German energy with power cuts. It is the opportunity cost that really matters . Europe has 20+ countries to fill the gap within the group

Comedy gold from Australia.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Seeing as we're all 'Little Englanders' and too puny and inconsequential to be able to govern ourselves, I'm certain that
the French And Germans will not give a flying fuck how we vote. After all, they've got the powerhouses of Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia,
Estonia and Greece within their club, so why do they need a tiny snivelling no mark, moaning shower like us?

 

[west didsblue]

Just vote how you feel personally about the organisation of the EU itself.

I myself believed in Europe once, but am voting out for these reasons:

TTIP - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html (It is a 'scaremongering' post, but it does contain the same concerns I have about it and how the EU endorses it despite public criticism and opposition)

Secret plans for a United States of Europe already drawn up - http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/04/25...pe-deceleration-Britain-EU-Army-German-Dutch/

Formation of "EU Army" taking shape, annexing other member states armed forces personnel - https://next.ft.com/content/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173
(If link does not work, search for "Germany annexing Dutch military regiments".)

All EU countries must adopt Euro by 2020 - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be...ussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Cameron's reforms not yet accepted; will only be voted on until after referendum, only requires 8 states to vote against to be refused and which members are likely to do so - http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/europe-responds-to-camerons-eu-reform-proposals/

There are a number of other reasons aswell, but for me these are the main sticking points. I want the UK to join the EEA or EFTA at worst and am prepared to see Britain take some financial hit within the first 5 years if it means an end to the political union, but allows us to conduct trade deals with the other 160 or so countries as well as forming a trade deal with the EU, like Norway, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Iceland do and should after a while recover any immediate losses that resulted from leaving the EU. No-one can guarentee this as a certainty, though, but that's where the 'believe in Britain' rhetoric comes from, and I firmly believe this nation has the clout, determination and connections that will mean there will be no long term 'damage' to our economy or security.

Many in Europe want the Federal Europe and to do away with 'national identities' vis-a-vis the Soviet Union. Voices in Denmark and the Netherlands have stated that if Britain does leave, they want out of the EU as well. So at the moment there is no one side with a clear advantage in the debate and I can understand how annoyed about the whole discussion you can be considering how both sides have behaved. It could come down to yourself personally on whether or not you believe in the European Dream or stand by the idea of British self-determination.

Norway and Iceland are in the EEA which means they have to follow most of the EU rules anyway. Switzerland, although not formally in the EEA have a series of bilateral agreements so that it amounts to the same thing. All are part of Schengen. Luxembourg are in the EU, I'm guessing you meant Liechtenstein. Being in the EEA without being in the EU means you have to abide by most EU rules without a say in formulating them.

 

[Metal Biker]

Norway and Iceland are in the EEA which means they have to follow most of the EU rules anyway. Switzerland, although not formally in the EEA have a series of bilateral agreements so that it amounts to the same thing. All are part of Schengen. Luxembourg are in the EU, I'm guessing you meant Liechtenstein. Being in the EEA without being in the EU means you have to abide by most EU rules without a say in formulating them.

Rules regarding trade, nothing else.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland still have what I consider much more important; self determination. The EU holds no power over their elected governments. China, Canada, India, Brazil, South Korea Mexico all have to abide by EU rules regarding trade, which is all I want this country to do with Europe. They cannot force them to adopt the Euro, provide troops for their EU Army, or accept EU citizens. Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway, and Sweden have recently imposed temporary border controls so it's not as if the schengen agreement is an ironclad stipulation. My main 'fear' is that even if Britain chooses to remain there is nothing guarenteeing any of the other EU member states holding their own referendums (Denmark, Netherlands and Poland have the the most vocal besides us) and leaving making the EU weaker, keeping us part of a union that would fall apart around us. In my view, saying yes to the EU means saying yes to more integration, not co-operation. Some people want it, i'm one who doesn't.

And yes, I meant Liechtenstein :)

 

[Metal Biker]

Seeing as we're all 'Little Englanders' and too puny and inconsequential to be able to govern ourselves, I'm certain that
the French And Germans will not give a flying fuck how we vote. After all, they've got the powerhouses of Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia,
Estonia and Greece within their club, so why do they need a tiny snivelling no mark, moaning shower like us?

This is what I find puzzling too. For all their attempts to convince Britain to remain, voices in France and Germany haven't exactly made us feel welcomed imo. I don't feel like Britain is a 'member' of the EU, just a participant and our constant disapproval of the EU's attempts to create a Federal Europe are being seen by the EU as 'stifling progress' or 'not being a team player'. It's as if our views on what the EU should be are being undermined and treated with disrespect. A sense of "get on board or f*ck off!" attitude.

Well after 6 years of uhming and ahing, I choose to f*ck off.

 

[ali benarbia's studs]

i love our european brothers and sisters but each to their own. one rule would be just too easy to infiltrate by evil third parties. we need to put europe in its place first. people before power.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Can I make a suggestion? Why don't the people who have already made up their minds go off and waste their time somewhere else? I am not be flippant - I am genuinely struggling to see why if your mind is made up, you'd want to waste your time here? if your mind is made up and you are voting a certain way, no matter what, inviting debate about various points is a complete waste of time. We have people on here (and in my opinion mainly on the Brexit side) who will claim black is white or visa versa as needs be to justify their emotional decision. Honestly I have no problem with that. If people are so convinced one way or the other then fine. If they want to make up facts and completely disregard others, that's also fine. But it's not at all helpful for those who's minds are not made up.

I fall into that latter camp. I can see huge disadvantages in leaving. I see huge problems in staying as well. I'd like to understand the relative pros and cons of each so I can make up my mind. Dogmatists endlessly repeating (usually unsustainable) arguments to justify their position adds nothing I thing.

 

[Metal Biker]

Can I make a suggestion? Why don't the people who have already made up their minds go off and waste their time somewhere else? I am not be flippant - I am genuinely struggling to see why if your mind is made up, you'd want to waste your time here? if your mind is made up and you are voting a certain way, no matter what, inviting debate about various points is a complete waste of time. We have people on here (and in my opinion mainly on the Brexit side) who will claim black is white or visa versa as needs be to justify their emotional decision. Honestly I have no problem with that. If people are so convinced one way or the other then fine. If they want to make up facts and completely disregard others, that's also fine. But it's not at all helpful for those who's minds are not made up.

I fall into that latter camp. I can see huge disadvantages in leaving. I see huge problems in staying as well. I'd like to understand the relative pros and cons of each so I can make up my mind. Dogmatists endlessly repeating (usually unsustainable) arguments to justify their position adds nothing I thing.

Take your own advice.

 

[hilts]

Can I make a suggestion? Why don't the people who have already made up their minds go off and waste their time somewhere else? I am not be flippant - I am genuinely struggling to see why if your mind is made up, you'd want to waste your time here? if your mind is made up and you are voting a certain way, no matter what, inviting debate about various points is a complete waste of time. We have people on here (and in my opinion mainly on the Brexit side) who will claim black is white or visa versa as needs be to justify their emotional decision. Honestly I have no problem with that. If people are so convinced one way or the other then fine. If they want to make up facts and completely disregard others, that's also fine. But it's not at all helpful for those who's minds are not made up.

I fall into that latter camp. I can see huge disadvantages in leaving. I see huge problems in staying as well. I'd like to understand the relative pros and cons of each so I can make up my mind. Dogmatists endlessly repeating (usually unsustainable) arguments to justify their position adds nothing I thing.

So you're hoping after 305 pages and endless media coverage some genius is going to give you an undebatable fact and a light bulb will go off in your head and you will happily trot off to place your vote.

Good luck with that

 

[BigJoe#1]

So you're hoping after 305 pages and endless media coverage some genius is going to give you an undebatable fact and a light bulb will go off in your head and you will happily trot off to place your vote.

Good luck with that

^^This^^ Chippy Boy.

I hold no regrets about having made my mind up.... If you're so sure about what you're saying why are you here? Why do they have political debates between Farage and Cameron?

You're here to take on board arguements and to make an informed decision. I had credited you with enough nouse to be able to filter all the arguements and points made and to reach your individual decision, evidently I was wrong in that.

The inners on here can give no actual facts about what will happen if we stay in, just as the outers can't. It's all about opinion, speculation and individual values and priorities. I would have thought you'd know that. The whole purpose of a forum and debate is to try and persuade others to change views, or indeed to have your mind changed, or as in you case to gather evidence from both sides to help inform your own views. You are fee to disregard or take on board whatever you want, but please don't tell me or others on here (both inners and outers) to go away and leave you along with other undecideds to reach a view!

Have to say that was a very poor and disappointing post from someone I thought to be above that level of ignorance.

 

[blueonblue]

Have to say that was a very poor and disappointing post from someone I thought to be above that level of ignorance.

I thought it entirely typical of that special little snowflake, all he has ever posted is remainian propaganda without the logic to disuse or defend it ;0)

 

[hilts]

I thought it entirely typical of that special little snowflake, all he has ever posted is remainian propaganda without the logic to disuse or defend it ;0)

I thought he was undecided? Are you saying he is a sneaky inner parading as a fence sitter while craftily posting the odd stay in bias?

 

[blueonblue]

Go back and look at some of his posts, I did suspect it was call me dave logged on in search of approval at one point.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Having totally failed to demonstrate how we'd be better off, the Brexit argument comes down to (a) loss of Sovereignty and (b) loss of control of borders (from EU migrants).

(a) is certainly true, but the debate that isn't happening is, so fucking what. There's no evidence that left to our own devices we can run things any better, and if you look at the state we were in before we joined, plenty of evidence that actually we might be worse. Sick man of Europe, huge unemployment, strikes, 26% interest rates, 12 weeks to plead with BT to get a phone installed, British Leyland, need I say more. Oh, those were the days, when we had our Sovereignty.

Now we can't decide how much cocoa solids need to be in a bar of chocolate. Boo fucking hoo. Much of the legislation coming from Brussels - employment law, goods and services, human rights - is actually stuff that most of the country would regard as a good thing. As is the access to the EU markets and the ability to trade all around the world through the EU agreements. So we lose some Sovereignty, but are we losing it regarding anything *important*? Are we being dragged into a war we don't wan't to be in? Are we having our tax rates set for us? Are we being told how to run our schools, hospitals, police, army? No.

(b) is probably the biggest argument for leaving. But putting the emotions to one side, have you seen the queues of Polish and Estonians and what have you at the dole office? No, neither have I. They come here to work and often to do the shitty jobs that many people here don't want to do. They earn their money and pay their taxes and contribute to our aging population's pensions. Do they put a huge burden on our public resources? Yes. So we need to think about how to manage that. We probably need to spend more on schools and hospitals than we otherwise might. Which we can do with the increased GDP and tax revenues. Next.

Oh, there's does't appear to be a next.

Looking at this earlier post From you I can see you are very undecided and open minded to me on the subject, may be we should all leave and you can be the only poster and we can all follow your views.

 

[Chippy_boy]

^^This^^ Chippy Boy.

I hold no regrets about having made my mind up.... If you're so sure about what you're saying why are you here? Why do they have political debates between Farage and Cameron?

You're here to take on board arguements and to make an informed decision. I had credited you with enough nouse to be able to filter all the arguements and points made and to reach your individual decision, evidently I was wrong in that.

The inners on here can give no actual facts about what will happen if we stay in, just as the outers can't. It's all about opinion, speculation and individual values and priorities. I would have thought you'd know that. The whole purpose of a forum and debate is to try and persuade others to change views, or indeed to have your mind changed, or as in you case to gather evidence from both sides to help inform your own views. You are fee to disregard or take on board whatever you want, but please don't tell me or others on here (both inners and outers) to go away and leave you along with other undecideds to reach a view!

Have to say that was a very poor and disappointing post from someone I thought to be above that level of ignorance.

I didn't tell you anything. I asked a question and made a suggestion.

But honestly I have no idea why you or anyone else with a closed mind is even bothering to be on here.

You'll note for my umpteen posts that on several occasions I've said "fair point" or other such comment to someone suggesting an alternative view.

But some people are the equivalent of school children with hands over their ears saying "I'm not listening I'm listening I'm not listening". Well guess what, that's a bit tiresome after a while.

Still, everyone to their own and fortunately we have the ignore button with which we can filter out the dross, so either way I'm not fussed.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Go back and look at some of his posts, I did suspect it was call me dave logged on in search of approval at one point.

Welcome to my dross filter. Cheerio :-)

 

[blueonblue]

Bye dave...

 

[hilts]

So chippy boy is a tad dishonest, bit sad really but it takes all sorts I suppose