EU referendum

[pace89]

So Scotland's self-interests fucking it up for the rest of us again?

Surely, though, if they were smart, Nationalists would vote out and then they'd call for another referendum and stay in Europe, regardless?

Don't think that would work. The number of nationalists that would have to vote leave in order to make a difference across the UK as a whole could tip the balance in Scotland, thus undermining the whole point of tactical voting. Even if it didn't if the vote is close in Scotland it wouldn't give the nationalists a clear mandate. The SNP need a massive remain vote but if you look at the Scottish polling it shows that there is far more support for leave amongst those who support independence than many anticipate.

 

[hgblue]

We will survive. The question is - will we be better for it, or worse? and we may never discover anyway - as we can never truly know what would have happened if we'd taken a different path.

But you could also look to the future and quite plausibly see America as a huge superpower (like it already is). China the same. And they'd be exerting their influence massively. Are we going to be able to stand up to them? I personally don't believe so.

We may end up swallowed up by the Americans, or the Chinese, but if we don't the chances are, we're going to have to join forces with others - even if reluctantly.

If we vote to leave we'd find out pretty quickly that Cameron and Osbourne have been spouting bollocks. Our trading relationship with the EU would remain the same for at least two years, and once the dust has settled common sense will prevail and a deal will be done that suits both parties. If not we move to 2% tariffs which I reckon wouldn't even be worth the admin cost to introduce. Talk of punitive tariffs being applied is way wide of the mark, because the EU is in no position to upset it's biggest customer. People need to ask themselves how many German cars and how much French agricultural produce was sold in this country last year and decide what would happen to these crucial industries if things got nasty. It isn't going to happen, but maybe enough people will be frightened into believing it will for Remain to win the day. We shall see.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Haha - It's clear where we may differ, but I respect that outlook.

I don't see the world becoming a smaller place as a good thing, just as I don't see a high-speed rail link will suddenly create opportunity for anyone but London.

The world is a varied place, with many different traditions and problems, and I think trying to reconcile integrating that and even more people coming into the country, is just impacting far too many areas and services in our every day lives, certainly what I see from a schooling and health level.

I can't remember what life was like now before I had a mobile phone, less than 20 years ago, but I'm pretty sure I was still able to communicate with people, I maybe just had to work a little harder to communicate!!

Half of life's problems, seemingly, is a lack of self-sufficiency, and I like the idea of seeing this country at least attempt to determine how we go forward, without being told we need someone to always hold our hand.

If my children want to study or live in Germany when they are older, no problem, work for it. Get in line, and accept there will be people ahead of you more deserving, and it might not work out how they hoped.

Interesting that - but I only see it getting smaller to a point. It's smaller in that we're hopping all over the world these days and seeing and communicating with so much more of the world and for Europeans, yes there are differences, but a lot of similarities too....

But THEN... the Middle East, and Africa and Far East are much more visible to us now, and we are seeing the significant differences in culture. Once upon a time, Afghanistan meant little to most people, we had no interest in them, nor they in us. But now, theres'a culture shock between the two. We don't how they live, and they don't like how we live. So much so, we're willing to exert military force on them, and they are willing to exert terrorism on us (not just Afghanistan of course, that's just one illustration).

With that in mind, I think we see more similarity between us and the French etc - our neighbours, and we also see that those more distant lands are VERY different. It's almost inevitable that flock together. Just as the Mancunian dislikes the Liverpudlian, but they'll join forces against the South, who in turn will going forces against the French.. and so forth.

It's not only economic unity, but cultural / religious / beliefs etc and we're facing terrorism too, albeit from a minority of extremists.

 

[Metal Biker]

In that one sentence you have revealed yourself as being somebody who has not respect for those whose opinions differ to yours. Want respect? Give respect

And in your many replies you've proven you are incapable of doing just that.
If the conduct of your behaviour is the measure of what does and does not count as 'giving other opinions respect', i'll take that as a compliment.

 

[OB1]

I don't think it's unfair, certainly not in the context of the warnings which Cameron and the inners have spouted since the vote was established?

I don't recall him telling the electorate that we will all lose our jobs, our income, our homes, the cost of fecking holidays will be going up.

I'm a Conservative voter and I think he's bet it all on black and is hoping for the best? I don't think the public are really choosing, they are guessing and hoping for the best, like Cameron.

and there's the big(gest) problem: we are all guessing when it comes to what will happen economically if we vote leave. As far as I am concerned, the only worthwhile reason to be in the EU is for trade purposes. If we had never joined in the first place, I doubt we would be in a situation where we now wanted to join. Unfortunately, we are now entwined in the EU and laving will undoubtedly create all sorts of issues and take years and years of legislation to rectify the situation. It's a fucking mess either way, though. I have a lot of sympathy with the view I heard the other day that the Eurozone is a ticking bomb and one don't want to be in the same room as!

In all honesty, I don't think the decision on whether to leave or remain is one that should be trusted to the wider public, myself included, but I am not sure who is fit to make the decision.

I largely avoid political debate on here and won't reveal how I vote but in this instance, I will say that I don't know how I am going to vote; can't bloody abstain though on something so fundamentally important.

 

[FanchesterCity]

If we vote to leave we'd find out pretty quickly that Cameron and Osbourne have been spouting bollocks. Our trading relationship with the EU would remain the same for at least two years, and once the dust has settled common sense will prevail and a deal will be done that suits both parties. If not we move to 2% tariffs which I reckon wouldn't even be worth the admin cost to introduce. Talk of punitive tariffs being applied is way wide of the mark, because the EU is in no position to upset it's biggest customer. People need to ask themselves how many German cars and how much French agricultural produce was sold in this country last year and decide what would happen to these crucial industries if things got nasty. It isn't going to happen, but maybe enough people will be frightened into believing it will for Remain to win the day. We shall see.

I disagree - markets / investment will start moving from day 1 - business won't hang around either way. However, it will be in too much of a state of flux to determine if it's good or bad in the long run anyway because it'll be speculators speculating, panickers panicking, and hedgers hedging. We'll only stand a chance of assessing things after the dust has settled (as you say). So I think we will see lots of movement very quickly, but we won't be able to assess it accurately.

As for the EU being in no position to bargain, I think it's a stalemate. We are their single biggest export market, but they are our single biggest export market too (the EU, not any individual country). We just need each other - business wise, or rather we are good for each other business wise. But this isn't just business, there's politics at play too. Neither wants to lose face, and bad businesses decisions get made when egos are at stake.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes, Churchill WAS pro-European.

At no point did he EVER state that the UK should or would be a part of it. He saw a United Europe as an end to European Imperialism and contintental war (given that the UK had been involved in not one but three major conflicts in the space of 150 years.) He wanted Europe to stop fighting within itself, put an end to their empire building and to then trade with the British Empire.

Many people tend to use Churchill quotes completely out of context.

Oh yes.

 

[FanchesterCity]

and there's the big(gest) problem: we are all guessing when it comes to what will happen economically if we vote leave. As far as I am concerned, the only worthwhile reason to be in the EU is for trade purposes. If we had never joined in the first place, I doubt we would be in a situation where we now wanted to join. Unfortunately, we are now entwined in the EU and laving will undoubtedly create all sorts of issues and take years and years of legislation to rectify the situation. It's a fucking mess either way, though. I have a lot of sympathy with the view I heard the other day that the Eurozone is a ticking bomb and one don't want to be in the same room as!

In all honesty, I don't think the decision on whether to leave or remain is one that should be trusted to the wider public, myself included, but I am not sure who is fit to make the decision.

I largely avoid political debate on here and won't reveal how I vote but in this instance, I will say that I don't know how I am going to vote; can't bloody abstain though on something so fundamentally important.

My honest opinion is that if you truly can't decide, then don't vote. Something feels wrong about voting for something you're not consciously 'for'. I know many people will say that if you don't exercise your vote, you can't complain about it later, but that's no reason to effectively toss a coin. At least by not voting, you're indirectly creating a statistic that you didn't vote which gives a more accurate national picture. If 40% vote yes, 40% vote no, and others don't vote. At least we as a country KNOW that 20% couldn't be bothered or couldn't decide. But that's a more accurate picture than adding a vote which isn't believed in.

Just my opinion!

 

[FanchesterCity]

I only ever use Churchill references on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the fields and in the streets, in the hills; but NEVER out of context!

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Wont we be obliged to contribute via the IMF, just as we did with the Greek debacle ?

The IMF and the EU are two completely seperate things. If we left the EU we would still be in the IMF and still be lending money to nations in crisis. Exiting the IMF has not been suggested by anyone.

 

[FanchesterCity]

The IMF and the EU are two completely seperate things. If we left the EU we would still be in the IMF and still be lending money to nations in crisis. Exiting the IMF has not been suggested by anyone.

One of the overlooked things in 'lending money to nations in crisis' is that it's only a half picture. The lenders sought to profit from the lending. It's a major matter of debate if the lending helps or just nudges a troubled nation into deeper trouble. It can do either - but I wouldn't argue with anybody claiming that a fair few lenders are looking at the returns on their investments well ahead of the welfare of those countries!

 

[BigJoe#1]

BigJoe....couldnt change the size of the font and thats how it copied and pasted...sorry! You had me all wrong mate.....

In which case I apologise but it looked like you were trying to shout out. Anyway, I am sorry!

 

[BlueHammer85]

Paid holiday leave - EU legislation 4 weeks. UK 5.6 weeks

2.Maternity leave- EU 14 weeks. UK 52 weeks

3. Maternity pay- EU no minimum pay. UK 90% for 6 weeks then £140 for 33 weeks

4. Equal pay- This was law in 1970 before the UK joined the EU

5. Wages- The EU has no minimum wage unlike the UK and we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world

6. Discrimination- The UK had laws on sex(1975)and race(1965) discrimination long before the EU

7. Health and Safety- We in the uk have some of the best health and safety at work and have since 1974. We all look in shock at working conditions when on holiday in the EU

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

One of the overlooked things in 'lending money to nations in crisis' is that it's only a half picture. The lenders sought to profit from the lending. It's a major matter of debate if the lending helps or just nudges a troubled nation into deeper trouble. It can do either - but I wouldn't argue with anybody claiming that a fair few lenders are looking at the returns on their investments well ahead of the welfare of those countries!

It's a whole different topic. Just like the greek debt problem. The eurozone just need to print more Euros and write it off but that would make the French and Germans poorer in the process.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

The IMF and the EU are two completely seperate things. If we left the EU we would still be in the IMF and still be lending money to nations in crisis. Exiting the IMF has not been suggested by anyone.

It's the ESM (European Stability Mechanism) that covers bailouts and additional tier 1 funding for European banks and is only paid into by Eurozone members so the UK will not have to stump up for the many banks waiting to collapse in the eu - The uk voluntarily loaned Ireland funding when its banking collapse was on the cusp of ruining everyone - Big next bank to watch in Portugal is CGD which could well join two other banks from last year - its ok the Germans have got this one covered!

The UK is however a contributor to the EFSM (European Financial Stability Mechanism) which bails out eu countries - we're on the cards for the next bailout (no.2) - yippee and thanks

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

It's the ESM (European Stability Mechanism) that covers bailouts and additional tier 1 funding for European banks and is only paid into by Eurozone members so the UK will not have to stump up for the many banks waiting to collapse in the eu - The uk voluntarily loaned Ireland funding when its banking collapse was on the cusp of ruining everyone - Big next bank to watch in Portugal is CGD which could well join two other banks from last year - its ok the Germans have got this one covered!

The UK is however a contributor to the EFSM (European Financial Stability Mechanism) which bails out eu countries - we're on the cards for the next bailout (no.2) - yippee and thanks

We are not obligatted on this. We agreed to let the last one go through, nothing stopping us vetoing the next one.

 

[foxy]

Harold Shipman was a GP, does that mean h

Free travel between the UK and the Republic of Ireland preexists the EU and forms part of several Anglo-Irish treaties. It's not up for discussion in this referendum as far as I'm aware.

True.

Remain said they will maintain the current status but will have checks for non Republic and British passport holders.

 

[FanchesterCity]

We all look in shock at working conditions when on holiday in the EU

You shouldn't be working on your holiday! Put the laptop down!

 

[denislawsbackheel]

The Brexit conspiracy campaign - Woollaston, website problems, has reached a new level of stupidity.
David Coburn, Tory MEP TWEETED

BBC Knew the questions in advance and chose which audience members speak and Cameron still lost despite Aunties best efforts

This was in reference to the Cameron - Farage debate on...

ITV

 

[Tim of the Oak]

They like a union those fuckers.

Haha! It's the Unionists who want to Brexit!

Had to go to Northern Ireland for my appraisal the other year. The size of the Union Jack outsidenthe Town Hall made me laugh. Especially since my boss had pretended he lived in a catholic area before!