Labour / Tory Party meltdown Referendum fallout

Corbyn isn't in winning the election mode, he's in winning the argument mode. All those who accuse Corbyn supporters of not wanting to win elections are partly right, they will not support another Blairite Tory-lite clone, simply because he or she is a little less shit than their Tory equivalent.

Those who say this means perpetual Tory government are missing the point. Maintaining two shades of Tory party as the only choice on the ballot paper is perpetual Tory government.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Corbyn isn't in winning the election mode, he's in winning the argument mode. All those who accuse Corbyn supporters of not wanting to win elections are partly right, they will not support another Blairite Tory-lite clone, simply because he or she is a little less shit than their Tory equivalent.

Those who say this means perpetual Tory government are missing the point. Maintaining two shades of Tory party as the only choice on the ballot paper is perpetual Tory government.
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My frustrations are more rooted in the fact though that there are a few decent figures on the left of the party who have better leadership qualities the Corbyn. I'm sick of Corbyn supporters branding everyone who doesn't have any confidence in him as a Blairite. The Blair days have gone. I think there is a decent appetite to see Labour move away from that but just not with Corbyn in charge.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Corbyn isn't in winning the election mode, he's in winning the argument mode. All those who accuse Corbyn supporters of not wanting to win elections are partly right, they will not support another Blairite Tory-lite clone, simply because he or she is a little less shit than their Tory equivalent.

Those who say this means perpetual Tory government are missing the point. Maintaining two shades of Tory party as the only choice on the ballot paper is perpetual Tory government.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much how I see it, the constant abstaining or voting with the con/lib acoalition and this present gov by some PLP senior members has pissed off the membership who see no difference between tory and tory light Labour.

Hariet Harman has set this in motion with her recommendation to abstain from the welfare bill and thise that followed her lead irked the membership leading to this.
 
urban genie said:
No one in labour is a vote winner at the minute and that's the fault of the PLP, what I am saying is corbyn could have been a possible vote winner, (and still could be, but I am highly sceptical) but the last 9 months of bullshit from the likes of the guardian and PLP along with wankers like McTernan have pushed the country to the idea that he cannot win an election, though the right wingers on here will scoff the best analogy is with us and empty seats, the rags and rag media have pushed that line for a couple of seasons now to the point that most other fans now use it as a point of fact about our attendances, the same could be said about corbyns unelectability, if the press say it enough times over nearly a year the idea sticks in the publuc mindset.

Also he has engaged social media and the public a lot more than he is given credit for and not just Labour members, again most of this is ignored so the impression is he isn't giving out any message, look at the daily politics or other political shows, when discussing labour they wheel out tristam hunt, Powel, Jess phillips, Chris lesley etc all opposed to Corbyn and not prepared to put his message forward, why? because it makes good tv. only corbyn aupporter we get is abbot ffs.

Also on Scotland Blair won a GE where if scotland was as it is now it up there wouldn't have mattered, he still would have won, so it is possible though again I find it highly unlikely
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There's some good points, though I'm not convinced the Guardian and their mate Seamus Milne are among Corbyns biggest critics, I think there has been evidence to suggest quite the opposite. Interesting last point though, and this is central to the argument people like me who desire a Labour government are putting forward. Elections are won or lost not in Scotland, but in middle England. Basildon iirc has often been pointed to as a guide seat as to the next government. Blair won it, can anyone realistically see Corbyn doing so. In order for a Labour government to be in place I think the left of the party need to be pragmatic and accept that a Blairite style Labour is probably more to their taste than a May/Gove/Bojo Tory one, and ditch this wreckless blind following of Corbyn before the party implodes (if it hasnt already) and vanishes forever.
 
To be honest, personally it really grinds my gears when people refer to the Blair regime as Tory lite. I can't recall the Blair regime savaging either welfare and benefits system or the NHS in the way a Tory government does. Under Blair the national minimum wage was introduced and whilst no one will ever lead a luxurious existence it at least ended the ability of unscrupulous employers engaging in borderline slave labor. Huge investment was made in Education. Schools successive Tory regimes allowed to fall into dilapidation and disrepair, were demolished and purpose built facilities replaced them (including my old school and several others around me), A different approach was brought to negotiating peace in Northern Ireland bringing an end to decades of civil unrest, Wales and Scotland were granted devolution, and Northern cities, such as Manchester and Leeds, devoid of investment for decades were revitalised. Obviously Iraq is the stain on his rep but the Blair regime at least from my point of view was far from any idea of Tory Lite
 
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bluemoonmatt said:
To be honest, personally it really grinds my gears when people refer to the Blair regime as Tory lite. I can't recall the Blair regime savaging the welfare and benefits system in the way a Tory government does. Under Blair the national minimum wage was introduced and whilst no one will ever lead a luxurious existence it at least ended the ability of unscrupulous employers engaging in borderline slave labor. Huge investment was made in Education, schools successive Tory regimes allowed to fall into dilapidation and disrepair, were demolished and purpose built facilities replaced them (including my old school and several others around me), A different approach was brought to negotiating peace in Northern Ireland bring an end to decades of civil unrest, Wales and Scotland were granted devolution, and Northern cities, such as Manchester and Leeds, devoid of investment for decades were revitalised. Obviously Iraq is the stain on his rep but the Blair regime at least from my point of view was far from any idea of Tory Lite
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All those things, laudable as some were, are either cosmetic, eroded, gone, tinkering or exaggerations (Manchester and Leeds are less shit).

Harold Macmillan built 300,000 houses a year, Cameron brought in gay marriage but a left wing government tackles the big issues of power inequality, social mobility, a good education for all, universal healthcare, dignity in old age, a robust welfare state, poverty and the underclass and an equitable distribution of wealth.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
All those things, laudable as some were, are either cosmetic, eroded, gone, tinkering or exaggerations (Manchester and Leeds are less shit).

Harold Macmillan built 300,000 houses a year, Cameron brought in gay marriage but a left wing government tackles the big issues of power inequality, social mobility, a good education for all, universal healthcare, dignity in old age, a robust welfare state, poverty and the underclass and an equitable distribution of wealth.
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I think we'll both likely have different ideas of exaggertation, I remember posting on a politically leaning thread a pic of picc 1990 and now (was probably circa 2014 or something and there was a notable difference, you can do the same for arndale to a similar result (though I accept the IRA kind of helped out with that). I really can't see where I'm exaggerating. I live in Leeds and believe you me, the difference up here is unbelievable. Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, all we're beneficiaries of major regeneration. Not all can be attributed to Blair but its funny how it never happened under Thatcher/Major.

You say a left wing Government tackles the big issues, but can you even remember a true left wing government. Callaghan? its hard to tackle big issues with inflation over 20%, and wage repression in place and what answer did Labour resort to? a lurch even further to the left, which we all now know resulted in nearly two decades of Tory rule. Rule which we know allowed them to all but dismantle Trade Unionism. Can you not see the paralels, its like we're being served with a warning from history. A Labour government for me will always be preferable to a Tory one even though I personally tend to do better when the Tories are in, but to understand that for a Labour government to be electable they need broader appeal than just the industrial cities of the north, Scotland & Wales and parts of the smoke.
 
Can I just say Nicola Sturgeon is a complete twat, if she mentions Scotland not voting for brexit I'll go to Westminster and kick her in the fanny until she dies. I hope to god she gets a second referendum to vote out and then they stay with us then Jimmy fucking Krankie can fuck off.
 
Blue Maverick said:
Can I just say Nicola Sturgeon is a complete twat, if she mentions Scotland not voting for brexit I'll go to Westminster and kick her in the fanny until she dies. I hope to god she gets a second referendum to vote out and then they stay with us then Jimmy fucking Krankie can fuck off.
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After seeing what happened to Cameron when he thought we would vote Remain, there's no way she'll call another referendum.
 
In the 80's I found Neil kinnock a pain i the arse at times, even though he was leader, but could live with him, his son however is getting right on my wick, rabbiting on the same shite for 9 months, I wouldn't mind but the tax doging twat has only been an MP that long yet thinks he's some grand parliamentarian, Cat Smith for example has been in as long and just gets on with her work, while this gobshite waffles.
 
urban genie said:
In the 80's I found Neil kinnock a pain i the arse at times, even though he was leader, but could live with him, his son however is getting right on my wick, rabbiting on the same shite for 9 months, I wouldn't mind but the tax doging twat has only been an MP that long yet thinks he's some grand parliamentarian, Cat Smith for example has been in as long and just gets on with her work, while this gobshite waffles.
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He's probably deeply wounded that his dads and subsequently John Smiths good work is all unraveling before his eyes
 
bluemoonmatt said:
To be honest, personally it really grinds my gears when people refer to the Blair regime as Tory lite. I can't recall the Blair regime savaging either welfare and benefits system or the NHS in the way a Tory government does. Under Blair the national minimum wage was introduced and whilst no one will ever lead a luxurious existence it at least ended the ability of unscrupulous employers engaging in borderline slave labor. Huge investment was made in Education. Schools successive Tory regimes allowed to fall into dilapidation and disrepair, were demolished and purpose built facilities replaced them (including my old school and several others around me), A different approach was brought to negotiating peace in Northern Ireland bringing an end to decades of civil unrest, Wales and Scotland were granted devolution, and Northern cities, such as Manchester and Leeds, devoid of investment for decades were revitalised. Obviously Iraq is the stain on his rep but the Blair regime at least from my point of view was far from any idea of Tory Lite
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To give you a different viewpoint, I was a Thatcher fan and sick of the insipid wankers who followed her as party leader. After the initial disappointment of a Labour win, I soon realised Blair was indeed Tory Lite: a more talented, PR-savvy version of her successors. I was comfortable with him for a while but soon tired of his which-way-does-the-wind-blow policies. The main difference between Labour and Tory is on managing the economy. Blair and Brown's "investment" was largely on the never-never, which left the nation a large bill.

Ironically, Blair's tainted legacy comes from his own obsessive wish to match Thatcher as a popular war leader.
 
bluemoonmatt said:
He's probably deeply wounded that his dads and subsequently John Smiths good work is all unraveling before his eyes
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Maybe his dad, but smith was more inclined to be inclusive of all branches of the party and was open to bringing the left back into the fold after the purge of the 80's, that all went with blair though.

What I find bizzare is that Kinnock senior, mandleson, brown and blair were either marxist, trots, or more hard left than they became, and that anyone with strong convictions can switch so dramatically their beliefs to win power. That's why the tories win they will talk the talk to win power, but when they have it they will follow their ideology with a passion, Some in labour unfortunately cannot manage that political trick.
 
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