Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[BobKowalski]

Fascinating, but disturbing, that the government have totally given up any discussion of any benefits to Brexit and are purely talking about minimising damage.

What an enormous, national clusterfuck.

In the sunny uplands of Brexitland there is a field of Unicorns bereft, alone and unloved.

 

[CitizenTID]

That same 'arrogance' was lauded on here when Barroso was asked to comment during the Scottish independence referendum on SNP EU aspirations.

I think it's very difficult to untangle EU negotiating techniques from EU helpfulness.

As a member of the organisation that is the EU, it is within his remit to comment on whether they accept a new member. If hypothetically by law, there was an independent Scotland that automatically became a member of the EU, he would be overstepping the mark trying to influence whether they should leave the EU.

Note I am talking about influence, because it has been consistent comments, not just them commenting on someone asking their opinion. They have even spoke of creating division within our nation (via the devolved assemblies) which is unacceptable. This was in response to one of our politicians suggesting a divide and conquer approach to negotiations by talking indecently with states that are members of the EU. This is completely different - the EU is not a sovereign nation.

 

[CitizenTID]

So what was your point ?

They are consistently attempting to influence internal matters of our nation

 

[blueparrot]

They are consistently attempting to influence internal matters of our nation

How is reversing Brexit and telling the EU, we've changed our mind and want to rescind artilcle 50 and please can we stay in their organisation, purely internal. They will have a big say in whether we are allowed to stay or not.

 

[CitizenTID]

How is reversing Brexit and telling the EU, we've changed our mind and want to rescind artilcle 50 and please can we stay in their organisation, purely internal. They will have a big say in whether we are allowed to stay or not.

I'M SORRY,
I missed where we did that?

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

How is reversing Brexit and telling the EU, we've changed our mind and want to rescind artilcle 50 and please can we stay in their organisation, purely internal. They will have a big say in whether we are allowed to stay or not.

I'm not sure that's quite right. I think that, and I could be completely wrong, if we say, after acting in all good faith, we've changed our minds I don't think there is anything the EU could actually do about it. I don't think there is a mechanism to 'throw us out' as such.
There could be a real opportunity for a quick thinking, nimble politician to renegotiate the terms of staying in a way Cameron and Blair never managed. Sadly, those types of politicians seem incredibly thin on the ground....

 

[blueparrot]

I'm not sure that's quite right. I think that, and I could be completely wrong, if we say, after acting in all good faith, we've changed our minds I don't think there is anything the EU could actually do about it. I don't think there is a mechanism to 'throw us out' as such.
There could be a real opportunity for a quick thinking, nimble politician to renegotiate the terms of staying in a way Cameron and Blair never managed. Sadly, those types of politicians seem incredibly thin on the ground....

Just had a quick look, it seems nobody really knows whether it can be revoked.

"Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty was written with a deliberate lack of clarity - it does not say whether it can be revoked once it has been triggered.
As a result, the UK government has been unable to make any definitive legal statements on the issue.
The Justice Secretary, Liz Truss, has said "My understanding is that it is irrevocable," while the Brexit Secretary, David Davis, said in December 2016: "Is it irrevocable? I don't know."
In the recent UK Supreme Court case on Article 50, both sides assumed that it was irrevocable and the court judgement concluded: "We are content to proceed on the basis that that is correct, without expressing any view of our own."
So this is not an issue that has been formally tested in a UK court. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39291512

 

[BobKowalski]

I'm not sure that's quite right. I think that, and I could be completely wrong, if we say, after acting in all good faith, we've changed our minds I don't think there is anything the EU could actually do about it. I don't think there is a mechanism to 'throw us out' as such.
There could be a real opportunity for a quick thinking, nimble politician to renegotiate the terms of staying in a way Cameron and Blair never managed. Sadly, those types of politicians seem incredibly thin on the ground....

Not honestly sure there is an appetite in the EU for that. For years we have threatened to leave and demanded 'special deals' to ensure we stay until patience ran out last year with Cameron. The EU has had a year to adjust to us going (to some extent they already think we are gone) and have done so. Now it's all about Macron & Merkel reigniting the old French German partnership and driving the EU forward without the UK whinging in the back.

And what if they did say OK forget about Article 50 and we rejoined the fold with extra sweetners. What's to say we don't try it again in 5 years time? Or another country pulls the same stunt? No we have triggered the countdown clock and we will be out. Best Hammond thinks we can do is get a 3 or 4 year transitional deal that keeps us in but 'politically out' whilst we figure out what the fuck we do next.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Not honestly sure there is an appetite in the EU for that. For years we have threatened to leave and demanded 'special deals' to ensure we stay until patience ran out last year with Cameron. The EU has had a year to adjust to us going (to some extent they already think we are gone) and have done so. Now it's all about Macron & Merkel reigniting the old French German partnership and driving the EU forward without the UK whinging in the back.

And what if they did say OK forget about Article 50 and we rejoined the fold with extra sweetners. What's to say we don't try it again in 5 years time? Or another country pulls the same stunt? No we have triggered the countdown clock and we will be out. Best Hammond thinks we can do is get a 3 or 4 year transitional deal that keeps us in but 'politically out' whilst we figure out what the fuck we do next.

Whilst I agree with most of that, what we do have, is the 2nd biggest contribution to the coffers. It is not an insignificant amount and, as the major hurdle appears to be free movement, they might well accept; 'freedom of movement with the offer of a job,' which might go some way to addressing uk concerns.

 

[Gabriel]

As a member of the organisation that is the EU, it is within his remit to comment on whether they accept a new member. If hypothetically by law, there was an independent Scotland that automatically became a member of the EU, he would be overstepping the mark trying to influence whether they should leave the EU.

Note I am talking about influence, because it has been consistent comments, not just them commenting on someone asking their opinion. They have even spoke of creating division within our nation (via the devolved assemblies) which is unacceptable. This was in response to one of our politicians suggesting a divide and conquer approach to negotiations by talking indecently with states that are members of the EU. This is completely different - the EU is not a sovereign nation.

He was happy to discuss hypotheticals when he should have simply refused to be drawn into discussing hypotheticals.

I think there are already divisions between the nations, so the EU27 is simply further exploiting those which already exist. The EU27 moved quickly to agree to speak as one on this issue. Presumably the UK government could follow suit but because it is in itself so divided, as is the country, it cannot.

It's all rather reminiscent of Sir Humphrey's explanation of British foreign policy in respect to Europe, but now in reverse. :-(