The Pep niggles are not just tiresome - they’re unbelievable. The rag fans would give anything to have him as their manager
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Criticism of Pep
- Thread starter asahartford1
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The Pep niggles are not just tiresome - they’re unbelievable. The rag fans would give anything to have him as their manager
Opinions are like arseholes, so reading through the thread my issue is not with anyone’s feelings about Pep. Whilst I loved Mancini at the time, and he was perfect for us at that stage in our modern evolution, I wouldn’t want him anywhere near the club now. Pep is the guy we need now to steer us through the next stage of our evolution, and I’m delighted he’s our Manager right now. But that’s my personal opinion - nothing more.
What I can’t get my head around is when the opinions people express cloud the indisputable facts which can’t just be ignored to suit a narrative. The Klopp/Pep debate is a clear indication of this, and I’ve read some opinion in this thread which bears so little relation to the clear facts of the situation that it’s genuinely baffling.
That said, I don’t really read any of the main uk media outlets, for whom fact is almost always secondary to narrative, so I guess I don’t hold much sway with the lens the uk media want us to view football through - which is the only explanation I can think of for such committed revisionism.
So - to the Pep/Klopp debate. Let’s stick with the facts rather than opinion and conjecture. Klopp joined Liverpool at the beginning of October 2015 - in that time, he’s had the majority of the 15/16 season, three full seasons since then, and just over half of the current season. He’s finished 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd and is on course to finish first this season. During his first 3 seasons he won precisely nothing. Zero. Nada.
Last year he won his only major trophy at Liverpool - and it was a biggie, granted. An incredible achievement - no question. But one trophy is all he has to show for 4 years of work. In that time, he has never finished ahead of City in the League. Ever. Not even once. He has never won a domestic trophy for his club. And the recent contempt for the cups during this season and last shouldn’t cloud his genuine attempts to win them prior to last season. In the League and the domestic cups, his record reads nothing but failure over four seasons.
Pep joined City in July 2016 - 8 months after Klopp at Liverpool. His first season drew a blank - unquestionably a failure - but from there he won the League and League Cup double in his second season, and an unprecedented League, FA Cup and League Cup treble in his third season. At the same point, and despite an 8 month head start - Klopp had won precisely fuck all.
Last season’s achievement by Pep (still just 6 months ago) is unparalleled in English football. No one has ever won the domestic treble before. Ferguson, English footballs most successful manger, used to be fond of saying it was impossible. Not for Pep, it wasn’t!
Last season’s CL win by Klopp was incredible, but to put it into context, a team wins the CL every single year. In England alone, teams have won the CL/European Cup 13 times. Shit - Liverpool themselves had won it 5 times already before Klopp took over. It’s far from unique.
No one has ever achieved what Pep did last year.
Now you can argue about starting points to contextualise the above. Fine - let’s look at that. When Klopp took over in October ‘15, he had 5 of his regular starters already at the Club (including 2 of the players who make up his undisputed starting 11 today) - Henderson, Firmino, Milner, Gomez and Lovren. He also had Coutinho, who was excellent for Liverpool - prompting Barca to pay a fortune to add him to their team, alongside current squad members Lallana and Origi and useful players like Sturridge, Lucas, Can, Mignolet and Skrtel. The squad was imbalanced, but definitely had enough talent to win one of the domestic cups (they came close in 2016, lest we forget!), and to form the basis for a challenge on the League with a couple of high quality additions. He then added Mane, Matip and Wijnaldum for his first full season (16/17) - finishing 4th that year, and Salah, Robertson, Oxlade-Chamberlain and van Dijk (and Alexander-Arnold becoming a regular) during 2017/18 - again, finishing 4th. That’s with 9 of his current starting 11. With 7 genuine starters added to his base over 2 full seasons, he won precisely nothing. He then had his most dramatic window in summer 2018, adding Alisson, Fabinho and Keita - with dramatic results.
In Pep’s first season, of last season’s vintage he had Vinnie, David, Raz, Kun, KDB, Fernandinho and Otamendi (7 compared to Klopp’s 5). Honorary mention should also go to Yaya and Zabba, although by then they were 34 and 32 respectively, and its fair to say their best years were behind them. The rest of the squad was populated by players such as Sagna, Fernando, Kolarov, Navas and Clichy - on a par with players like Moreno, Benteke, Sakho and Joe Allen at Liverpool. He then added first teamers Gundogan, Stones, Sane and Jesus, won fuck all, and then had our most dramatic window under his management in 2017, bringing in Ederson, Bernardo and Kyle Walker. With 7 genuine starters added over 2 years, he won the double, then the treble with the same team the year after.
Looking at the squads, both needed an overhaul - and both worked the market successfully to fill the gaps. There isn’t much to split them on that front.
Which brings us bank to the plain fact at the core of the argument. 5 major trophies during 3 years, vs 1 during just shy of 4 years.
Don’t believe the hype the uk media is pedalling - look at the facts. Klopp is a good manager, sure - but his record and achievements aren’t even as impressive as Mourinho, Ancelotti, Conte, Roberto Di Matteo or our very own Roberto Mancini. And he doesn’t hold a candle (pun entirely intended) to Pep.
That’s just a fact!
Oh what a joy to read
Decent article.
And some truth in it.
Pep Guardiola isn't just losing on the pitch this season, but off it as well.
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...pitch-season-it-well-man-city-liverpool-klopp
Some truth and some drivel also.
I wonder what they would have written if Van Dijk and Mane (or at least Origi) missed 5-6 months of the season and Liverpool had to deal with unfavorable decisions while we were with Laporte and Sane in that period and had a lot of favourable decisions.
This season we have had a lot of things going against us and some of our own fans seem eager to explain our problems with Pep's flaws. Nobody is flawless. Klopp himself lost how many finals in a row? The next City manager will have his own flaws, but he might lack some of Pep's qualities.
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GortonBlue62
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You want him to ring round the fan base individually?
I want him to shut his mouth about anything that's not relevant to managing the team and I want him to close the gap to Liverpool.
If he must try and influence our fans behaviour he can do that, internally, by talking to his friends in high places, not by mouthing off like a sulky kid in post match interviews.
bobbyowenquiff
Well-Known Member
I think the 442 article is fair criticism. I believe we are not as slick off the pitch as Liverpool are. There are many reasons for this but I think that as CFG has grown our most senior team have taken their eye off the ball in Manchester, especially with media relations. We are just not proactive enough in protecting our reputation and this issue is starting to undermine our organisation.Interesting. And probably reflects what is said on here daily. We have a disadvantage because the media is infested by rags and dippers but we could be a great deal more effective than we are. Pep should lead from the front by not being such a grumpy c*nt in front of the media week after bloody week. FFS we have all done things in our job that we don't like doing but most of us face these tasks with a forced smile and as much professionalism as we can muster. Pep should think on doing the same and actively sell the club and its achievements rather than wax lyrical about other clubs 'history'.
Opinions are like arseholes, so reading through the thread my issue is not with anyone’s feelings about Pep. Whilst I loved Mancini at the time, and he was perfect for us at that stage in our modern evolution, I wouldn’t want him anywhere near the club now. Pep is the guy we need now to steer us through the next stage of our evolution, and I’m delighted he’s our Manager right now. But that’s my personal opinion - nothing more.
What I can’t get my head around is when the opinions people express cloud the indisputable facts which can’t just be ignored to suit a narrative. The Klopp/Pep debate is a clear indication of this, and I’ve read some opinion in this thread which bears so little relation to the clear facts of the situation that it’s genuinely baffling.
That said, I don’t really read any of the main uk media outlets, for whom fact is almost always secondary to narrative, so I guess I don’t hold much sway with the lens the uk media want us to view football through - which is the only explanation I can think of for such committed revisionism.
So - to the Pep/Klopp debate. Let’s stick with the facts rather than opinion and conjecture. Klopp joined Liverpool at the beginning of October 2015 - in that time, he’s had the majority of the 15/16 season, three full seasons since then, and just over half of the current season. He’s finished 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd and is on course to finish first this season. During his first 3 seasons he won precisely nothing. Zero. Nada.
Last year he won his only major trophy at Liverpool - and it was a biggie, granted. An incredible achievement - no question. But one trophy is all he has to show for 4 years of work. In that time, he has never finished ahead of City in the League. Ever. Not even once. He has never won a domestic trophy for his club. And the recent contempt for the cups during this season and last shouldn’t cloud his genuine attempts to win them prior to last season. In the League and the domestic cups, his record reads nothing but failure over four seasons.
Pep joined City in July 2016 - 8 months after Klopp at Liverpool. His first season drew a blank - unquestionably a failure - but from there he won the League and League Cup double in his second season, and an unprecedented League, FA Cup and League Cup treble in his third season. At the same point, and despite an 8 month head start - Klopp had won precisely fuck all.
Last season’s achievement by Pep (still just 6 months ago) is unparalleled in English football. No one has ever won the domestic treble before. Ferguson, English footballs most successful manger, used to be fond of saying it was impossible. Not for Pep, it wasn’t!
Last season’s CL win by Klopp was incredible, but to put it into context, a team wins the CL every single year. In England alone, teams have won the CL/European Cup 13 times. Shit - Liverpool themselves had won it 5 times already before Klopp took over. It’s far from unique.
No one has ever achieved what Pep did last year.
Now you can argue about starting points to contextualise the above. Fine - let’s look at that. When Klopp took over in October ‘15, he had 5 of his regular starters already at the Club (including 2 of the players who make up his undisputed starting 11 today) - Henderson, Firmino, Milner, Gomez and Lovren. He also had Coutinho, who was excellent for Liverpool - prompting Barca to pay a fortune to add him to their team, alongside current squad members Lallana and Origi and useful players like Sturridge, Lucas, Can, Mignolet and Skrtel. The squad was imbalanced, but definitely had enough talent to win one of the domestic cups (they came close in 2016, lest we forget!), and to form the basis for a challenge on the League with a couple of high quality additions. He then added Mane, Matip and Wijnaldum for his first full season (16/17) - finishing 4th that year, and Salah, Robertson, Oxlade-Chamberlain and van Dijk (and Alexander-Arnold becoming a regular) during 2017/18 - again, finishing 4th. That’s with 9 of his current starting 11. With 7 genuine starters added to his base over 2 full seasons, he won precisely nothing. He then had his most dramatic window in summer 2018, adding Alisson, Fabinho and Keita - with dramatic results.
In Pep’s first season, of last season’s vintage he had Vinnie, David, Raz, Kun, KDB, Fernandinho and Otamendi (7 compared to Klopp’s 5). Honorary mention should also go to Yaya and Zabba, although by then they were 34 and 32 respectively, and its fair to say their best years were behind them. The rest of the squad was populated by players such as Sagna, Fernando, Kolarov, Navas and Clichy - on a par with players like Moreno, Benteke, Sakho and Joe Allen at Liverpool. He then added first teamers Gundogan, Stones, Sane and Jesus, won fuck all, and then had our most dramatic window under his management in 2017, bringing in Ederson, Bernardo and Kyle Walker. With 7 genuine starters added over 2 years, he won the double, then the treble with the same team the year after.
Looking at the squads, both needed an overhaul - and both worked the market successfully to fill the gaps. There isn’t much to split them on that front.
Which brings us bank to the plain fact at the core of the argument. 5 major trophies during 3 years, vs 1 during just shy of 4 years.
Don’t believe the hype the uk media is pedalling - look at the facts. Klopp is a good manager, sure - but his record and achievements aren’t even as impressive as Mourinho, Ancelotti, Conte, Roberto Di Matteo or our very own Roberto Mancini. And he doesn’t hold a candle (pun entirely intended) to Pep.
That’s just a fact!
TheThirdDeano
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You are absolutely taking the pissIt could be said that by 'disrespecting' the 2 domestic cup competitions and focusing on PL and CL, Klopp has strategically outmaneuvered Pep (again).
inchy14
Well-Known Member
it is not compulsory? i didn't go because i didn't fancy it and i have a busy week, Don't see whats ironic or why that means i cant comment on Pep.
Spurs will be the 41st football game i have attended this season. Fulham at home on a Sunday at 1 was not that appealing when i drive into Manchester nearly every day of my life and it was on telly.
People have a right to have a go at Pep in this instance. Listen i like the guy and he is clearly a good man but these fan niggles are just a bit tiresome. Since when would we ever get 54k against Fulham in the 4th round of the cup and when it was on TV. 39k was a decent crowd.
What's ironic is that you missed the game because you needed to spend time with the family but will disappear next weekend down to London for the Spurs game which will mean you'll spend more time apart from them than you would have if you'd gone on Sunday, i'm sure they'd have loved an afternoon in the Tunnel club with yourself......... (which being sat next to as i'd had my seat moved due to CB3 not being open has also got something to do with a piss poor atmosphere but that's for another thread)
I get people aren't happy about his comments but the majority in the ground on Sunday around me we saying similar, it's empty and flat, we need to improve that.
As far as i'm concerned he was right regarding Sunday, it wasn't full, the atmosphere was absolutely wank and as @Shaelumstash said earlier we've become a fanbase who are apathetic.
Gray
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Gameover after 6 minutes, what do you expect. We British are not into the organised chanting and not actually watching the game mentality.As far as i'm concerned he was right regarding Sunday, it wasn't full, the atmosphere was absolutely wank and as @Shaelumstash said earlier we've become a fanbase who are apathetic.
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