“The work of God”?

We don't need manuscripts. Our primary sources were transmitted by memorization, a tradition that continues to this day (estimated 9 million memorizers of the Qur'an cover to cover today).

Wow, you understand scientific method, surely?

so basically a game of Chinese whispers took place and this was eventually transcribed almost 80 years after the fact?

oh and when Mohammed ascended to the heavens, splitting the moon in two as an offering?? Piss funny, he’s my kind of boy, a Middle Eastern Thor if you like, however, I retain more of an affinity for norse ‘mythology’ as at least they let their women fight in the fables..

You see what is happening is Islam, along with all the other religions since time began, is going through an inevitable transition, one Christianity has had to accept due to scientific logic, Your scholars are becoming philosophers, replacing facts with allegory to substantiate meaning, however, the biggest struggle, and the one which enforces the oppression of its evolution is the inability to change, and ignore facts, thus scholars are rejected and you continue believing jackanory like Adam and Eve....

Here endeth the lesson!
 
American churches handing out handkerchiefs that have been blessed.

surprised they aren’t selling them.
 
We do not believe in young Earth creation theories.
I cannot comment on all the articles mentioned in the site, nor do I have the scholarship to answer them. But, I can answer on the simple contradition on alcohol.

These are the verses compared.
Qur'an 2:219 "They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit."

Qur'an 16:67 "And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason."

Verse 16:67 is actually hinting that though people make both kinds of drinks, those who reason will avoid the intoxicant and take only the good from the fruits. The verse is not addressed to the believers but to the people in general. Also, given that Chapter 16 was revealed in the Meccan period, there was no prohibition on alcohol at the time. The complete prohibition was after 15 years in the Medinan period.

So as I commented in my previous posts, they are just matching up verses, ignoring to whom it was addressed to, the intent of the verse and also disregarding the historical context.
Even more mental
 
Wow, you understand scientific method, surely?

so basically a game of Chinese whispers took place and this was eventually transcribed almost 80 years after the fact?

oh and when Mohammed ascended to the heavens, splitting the moon in two as an offering?? Piss funny, he’s my kind of boy, a Middle Eastern Thor if you like, however, I retain more of an affinity for norse ‘mythology’ as at least they let their women fight in the fables..

You see what is happening is Islam, along with all the other religions since time began, is going through an inevitable transition, one Christianity has had to accept due to scientific logic, Your scholars are becoming philosophers, replacing facts with allegory to substantiate meaning, however, the biggest struggle, and the one which enforces the oppression of its evolution is the inability to change, and ignore facts, thus scholars are rejected and you continue believing jackanory like Adam and Eve....

Here endeth the lesson!

+1
 
No issues. I can kind of figure out the sources (Qur'an, hadith, tafsir, seerah). If not I'll ask.



Yes, it is in the scriptures that God tests the believers especially.
Qur'an 29:2-3 "Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?. But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars."

So you’re being tried for your opinion and belief, something so personal. This isn’t freedom, it’s the most stringent form of totalitarianism and what god would really care if one person believed in him or not? Sounds like the greatest story of narcissism ever. Surely the man who doesn’t believe in god, yet still does good, for his own consciousness, is a better person than someone who does so because he’s scared big brother is watching?

Islam doesn't subscribe to the prosperity principle. Wealth, children, fear, hunger are all tests. God tests the wealthy by making them accountable for how they spend it and for ignoring the needs of those they could help.
Qur'an 64:15-16 "Your wealth and your children are but a trial, and Allah has with Him a great reward. So fear Allah as much as you are able and listen and obey and spend; it is better for your selves. And whoever is protected from the stinginess of his soul, it is those who will be the successful."

Your children are more than a trial. I don’t have a problem with the wealth part.

Toddlers blown up go straight to heaven. Granted this is an imperfect world, but it is finite. God also created the infinite afterlife that compensates for any sufferings and a Day of Judgement. What kind of world would you create with human beings having free will ?

I don’t buy this. Some people are born in the most horrific pain and fear. A girl I knew at school, who I subsequently became very good friends with her brother, had cystic fibrosis. She grew up knowing she never had a chance to be an adult and that her time was incredibly limited. She must have been so frustrated and scared throughout her teenage years. There are even worse conditions, in which children are born into unimaginable pain. You say it’s worth it because they get a better deal in the afterlife, I say if god exists and is omnipresent, he’s a total psychopath and evil.

Just as we see all the species around us having a role in the food-chain and equilibrium of the Earth, dinosaurs might have had a similar role at the time.

Yes but what’s the point? God has this perfect plan for humans but let’s dick around for a few billion years with weird giant lizards. Let’s wipe them out by a meteor and have an ice age all before giving my mutated apes a miserable existence to prove themselves.

The Qur'an helps in this regard by unifying the message of all the prophets. We make no distinction between Muhammad(saw) and Jesus(as).

Muhammad is THE Prophet though, Jesus is one of several minor ones in Islam.

Agreed. The questioning that is not allowed is after the proof of prophethood is established (by miracles and other signs that the Prophets bring with).

The one thing I agree with the Jews in religion is that I’m not having Jesus nor Muhammad. They’re both deluded liars.

Religion is to understand God, not the universe and the scriptures are there to answer questions on faith. Prophets teaching science is counter-productive and a waste of time. They'll have a hard time teaching the ignorant masses of the laws of physics and cosmology.

Surely how man came to exist is important? Why does every monotheism get it so wrong? They obviously didn’t know and if they didn’t know they’re not divine.

Muhammad's (saw) ascension to the heavens was to show him the signs, to meet the prophets and speak to God. We are not required to base our faith on miracles. They are only proofs for those who witness them (and this event wasn't witnessed by anyone).

No he didn’t, sorry mate.

The antisemitic claim is ludicruous. This is the verse in the 1st chapter you're referring to.
Qur'an 1:6-7 "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray."
Notice that there is no mention of Christians or Jews in the verse. Even if the latter part of the verse is referring to them, as some scholar or commentator opine, it is still talking only of the sinful people and not the righteous among them. If Qur'an criticizes the Jews who violated the Sabbath, it is only honouring the Jewish faith. It is similar to how Jesus(as) called out the rabbis and the pharisees.

My Qur’an is in the loft so I’ll have to dig it out another time but I can clearly recollect several negative mentions of Jews within the first few pages.

As for the righteous among them, Qur'an speaks of them in much much higher regard than the Old Testament itself. I'll give some examples to illustrate this.
Example 1: The greatest Jewish prophet Moses(as) kills an Egyptian

Old Testament - And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand” (Exodus. 2:11-12)

Qur'an 28:15-16 - And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy. He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me..."

In the OT narration, Moses(as) is seen as spying and intentionally killing the Egyptian, whereas in the Qur'anic account, he only wanted to help his fellow Israelite, but accidentally his blow was too strong that the Egyptian got killed and immediately after that Moses(as) repents for his mistake.

Example 2: Aaron(as), the high priest and brother of Moses(as) is involved in a grave sin of making golden calf idol.

Old Testament - "He(Aaron) took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt" - Exodus 32:4

Qur'an 20:90-94 - And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order. They said, "We will never cease being devoted to the calf until Moses returns to us. [Moses] said, "O Aaron, what prevented you, when you saw them going astray, from following me? Then have you disobeyed my order?" [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, do not seize [me] by my beard or by my head. Indeed, I feared that you would say, 'You caused division among the Children of Israel, and you did not observe [or await] my word.' "

In the Qur'anic account, Aaron(as) has no role in making the idol (this is done by a Samiri), and he even warns the people that they are being tested by this.

Example 3: Prophet Jacob (Israel)'s reaction on hearing the dream of Joseph(as).

Old Testament - "Listen," he (Joseph) said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me. When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?" - Genesis 37:9-10

Qur'an 12:5-6 "He (Jacob) said, "O my son, do not relate your vision to your brothers or they will contrive against you a plan. Indeed Satan, to man, is a manifest enemy. And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of narratives and complete His favor upon you and upon the family of Jacob, as He completed it upon your fathers before, Abraham and Isaac. Indeed, your Lord is Knowing and Wise."

In the OT narration, Jacob(as) rebukes his son for seeing a dream and shows dislike for the dream, whereas in the Qur'an, Jacob(as) is shown as a wise father, advises his son not to disclose the dream to his jealous brothers and reassures that the Lord has chosen him.

As you can see, Qur'an honors the Jewish prophets and clears them of the sins and bad character attributed to them in the OT. Islam rejects stories like the affair of Prophet David(as) with Bathsheba. Caliph Ali(as), son-in-law of the Prophet declared he would whip a Muslim who narrated the story of David's affair from the OT. Such is the reverence an Arab prophet from the lineage of Ismael(as) showed towards the Jewish prophets. So, how convincing is your claim of anti-semitism in the Qur'an ?

Of course there are inconsistencies through the Qur’an, with all due respect it’s a ridiculous book, less believable than Harry Potter. I’m telling you the first few pages show a strong dislike of Jews.

It's already a long post, I'll reply to the other comments another day..

Some of the above may offend but I must say that I never refrain from being honest and I always post and speak my mind.

I hope you’ll at least appreciate that and my view.
 
I have a statue of a small kangeroo and I prayed to it to end this. Same result as that deluded ****. He knows there's fuck all there. A total fucking insidious scam. I'm just waiting for the posts about how Jesus saved this person or that. They always leave out the countless thousands who didn't make it. Seriously, the planet is bursting at the seams with people who are a fucking embarresment to the intellect they possess. As a kid ok, I too was brainwashed with this utter fucking fairytale, but, for fuck sake, any adult still continuing to believe this shite needs to have a word with themselves.

Its fucking embarressing.
Beautifully put :-)
 
Still enjoying this book:

This isn't a publication that would ordinarily attract my curiosity as I have no interest in ingesting this type of substance. However, I have been intrigued by reports on the most recent clinical trials suggesting that psychedelics can help with depression, addiction, and the angst that accompanies terminal illnesses.

Untitled_design_20_1_789329db-051a-485f-94f3-b9f3d4d0b512_500x.png


"Many of the people I'd interviewed had started out stone cold materialists and atheists, no more spiritually developed than I, and yet several had had 'mystical experiences' that left them with the unshakable conviction that there was something more to this world than we know - a 'beyond' of some kind that transcended the material universe I presume to constitute the whole shebang. I thought often about one of the cancer patients I interviewed, an avowed atheist who had nevertheless found herself 'bathed in God's love'. "

Of course, there's no way of knowing whether these experiences of unitive consciousness are purely hallucinatory, the products of a chemical delerium.

This is why I am agnostic.

Scientific method might be the best thing out there but it is unable to say much about subjective experiences of this kind, that also happen to correlate with the experiences of those who have dedicated their lives to the practice of the variety of contemplative methods that can be found within the various faith traditions.

And the last time I checked on what is known as the 'hard problem' of how the brain gives rise to the mind, neuroscience was no closer to solving it.

None of this is an argument for the existence of the God of classical theism but there are many other ways of construing ultimate reality that readers of this thread probably haven't even heard of e.g. sunyata (for more on that see Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamikakarikas), the Tao (as conceived by ZhuangZi), inmo (from the perspective of Zen), the impersonal Brahman (as described by the Hindu Upanishads), the via negativa of Christian mystics, and so on.

For me this whole business therefore remains a mystery.
 
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Some of the above may offend but I must say that I never refrain from being honest and I always post and speak my mind.

I hope you’ll at least appreciate that and my view.
I don't know why you bother. Argument is good, but you are never going to persuade a person committed to their religion. It is not even a philosophical discussion because denial of facts, such as evolution, renders it meaningless. Nevertheless, I take my hat off to you for your effort.
 

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