UEFA FFP investigation - CAS decision to be announced Monday, 13th July 9.30am BST

[waspish]

That is exactly it. It doesn’t mater whether you agree with the rules or not. If you break them you should be punished. You may not agree that a speed limit on a certain road is 20, but that doesnt matter, if youre caught doing 30 you will be fined and get points.

We have to be able to accept the decision and say fair enough we broke the rules and should be punished by those rules. At the same time as saying we dont agree to those rules and fair enough to the club for having a go regardless and pushing those rules to their limit. We’ve had a blast while they did so and no one can ever take those memories away.

I fear we as a fanbase get so worked up that there is an agenda at the top of the sport (which there probably is giving it is self governed by the same clubs that would do us harm). But that can not be assumed to be the case at cas. If cas (supposed independent legal body) validate the verdit we have to accept it and move on with whatever comes our way as a result. Otherwise we really will look blinkered and petty

UEFA are as bent as fcuk wouldn’t except anything from these bunch of cheating fcukers.

 

[Norbiton]

That is exactly it. It doesn’t mater whether you agree with the rules or not. If you break them you should be punished. You may not agree that a speed limit on a certain road is 20, but that doesnt matter, if youre caught doing 30 you will be fined and get points.

We have to be able to accept the decision and say fair enough we broke the rules and should be punished by those rules. At the same time as saying we dont agree to those rules and fair enough to the club for having a go regardless and pushing those rules to their limit. We’ve had a blast while they did so and no one can ever take those memories away.

I fear we as a fanbase get so worked up that there is an agenda at the top of the sport (which there probably is giving it is self governed by the same clubs that would do us harm). But that can not be assumed to be the case at cas. If cas (supposed independent legal body) validate the verdit we have to accept it and move on with whatever comes our way as a result. Otherwise we really will look blinkered and petty

But what if the speed sign was changed from 30 to 20 after you passed it and you reluctantly accepted a fine and points short of a driving ban. Several years later the police say somebody has sent them an email suggesting that someone else drive the car that day and you misled them about who was driving and will now be banned. They have no proof and you know you were the driver but they're going to ban you anyway

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

Wouldn't we have had to sign up our agreement to the conditions of FFP at some stage in the past ?

No. These regulations were not enacted at the end of a democratic process which obtained the consent of clubs involved in the member leagues. If any clubs were consulted it was the G14. They objected to the original proposals which were concerned with the problem of debt to the extent that they threatened legal action. UEFA gave way and certain clubs were allowed considerable input into the formulation of the regulations which emerged and these dealt only with spending and not with debt (which wasn't mentioned). Clubs had been promised that the regulations would not prevent clubs doing anything which the law permitted and it is obvious that the regulations drove a steamroller over that commitment.

City have never "signed up" to these regulations but made it clear, I believe, that they would not contest them in court because the club's aim after 2008 was to enter a period of heavy investment to enable the club to compete at the highest level from its own resources. Had City expressed opposition to the regs and/or gone to court the club would have been sanctioned and/or banned from the CL and legal action would have been very lengthy and UEFA knew this was a real deterrent. The length of the process explains why City agreed to take the "pinch" in 2014 despite their instinctive reaction being to contest the judgement. In 2014 the club's position was that it would not accept that it was guilty of any "wrongdoing" (a significant choice of word?) and that is still its position. So, the club has never been asked to sign up to, or accept, the rules and I think one very strong argument it has, though not perhaps in CAS, is that the rules are an imposition which violates the promise of protection of owners' legal rights, rules which were drawn up with undue heed to the demands of a small number of clubs which sought to protect their own interests at the expense of those of other clubs and which have been used to hinder the progress specifically of Manchester City.

This raises the question of the nature of the "shitstorm" if one actually exists. I suspect that it may well not be a battle fought out in the press but rather at more official levels and even in the courts because if City's appeal is upheld UEFA can't do anything to stop us and if our appeal is rejected we have nothing to lose. The storm would raise questions about prejudice, consistency and possible corruption and the material is plentiful and readily available. For example: why have UEFA shown no interest in where the money from Liverpool's money laundering sponsors actually comes from? Why was FFP "reformed" the year after City were sanctioned in 2014 to allow clubs to do exactly what City were sanctioned so heavily for? Why have UEFA failed to take action against Russian clubs which have flagrantly ignored the regulations? Is the latter connected with the world cup of 2018? What investigations have UEFA carried out into the handling of PSG's sponsorship deals by the IC, and in particular the role of M. Leterme in investigating them? Is the TV deal with Bein sports in any way connected with these matters? Could UEFA clarify the role of Qataris in UEFA's affairs? And so on. If City do have a black book on dodgy dealings at UEFA these and other matters could get really interesting, not to say embarrassing.

I think City is one of very few honest clubs in a den of crooks, but we are not the reactive pushovers some claim and I do think we are in for turbulent times in Switzerland whatever happens at CAS.

 

[Gordyola]

Yeah, I think the club would contest any form of punishment. Not sure they’d be able to fast track that before next season starts though. If CAS uphold the verdict (or reduce the ban to one year) we almost certainly won’t be in next season’s CL draw.

If City choose to contest a negative ruling by CAD they can apply for an injunction to suspend the ban pending an appeal to law

 

[Gordyola]

Wouldn't we have had to sign up our agreement to the conditions of FFP at some stage in the past ?

Yes by entering the competition However, as UEFA are a commercial organisation, they compete with other football entireties for sponsorship revenue, the contact / t&c can certainly be challenged in law

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

That is exactly it. It doesn’t mater whether you agree with the rules or not. If you break them you should be punished. You may not agree that a speed limit on a certain road is 20, but that doesnt matter, if youre caught doing 30 you will be fined and get points.

We have to be able to accept the decision and say fair enough we broke the rules and should be punished by those rules. At the same time as saying we dont agree to those rules and fair enough to the club for having a go regardless and pushing those rules to their limit. We’ve had a blast while they did so and no one can ever take those memories away.

I fear we as a fanbase get so worked up that there is an agenda at the top of the sport (which there probably is giving it is self governed by the same clubs that would do us harm). But that can not be assumed to be the case at cas. If cas (supposed independent legal body) validate the verdit we have to accept it and move on with whatever comes our way as a result. Otherwise we really will look blinkered and petty

This ignores the importance of who makes the rules. If a speed limit of 30 mph is set by a sovereign body then it has to be obeyed: if I and six of my mates are shot of a bob or two, put up 20 mph signs, stop you, drag you off to my garden shed and fine you £1000 for doing 30 do you think you should be punished? Similarly the TfEU was ratified by the sovereign bodies of the EU: FFP was draw up by a bent (!) Frenchman and the reps of half a dozen clubs and ratified by no one. Which should be obeyed? Who should be punished?

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

The good Sheik will stand by City, whatever the outcome, because we are just part, but a very important part, of a global ambition. Note that the legal team will be appearing for CFG, defending a wholly owned subsidiary.
Spot on with old vs new money.

Very good post from Marvin and an excellent reply, KS. The CFG is the unstoppable force, involving already major Chinse and American investors and holding out the vision of a major sports and entertainment conglomerate. We'll see a major arena soon hosting all kinds of events and over the years the group will grow and grow as will the revenues. If the ban is upheld it will be no more than a break in the stride of relentless growth . The Sheikh is NOT losing interest!

 

[Bodicoteblue]

This ignores the importance of who makes the rules. If a speed limit of 30 mph is set by a sovereign body then it has to be obeyed: if I and six of my mates are shot of a bob or two, put up 20 mph signs, stop you, drag you off to my garden shed and fine you £1000 for doing 30 do you think you should be punished? Similarly the TfEU was ratified by the sovereign bodies of the EU: FFP was draw up by a bent (!) Frenchman and the reps of half a dozen clubs and ratified by no one. Which should be obeyed? Who should be punished?

This sharpened my mind about ffp.
Thinking about it, It seems that the legitimacy of ffp rests almost entirely on the insistence that it is ‘good for the sport’ , as uefa know better than the law.
No surprise then about the warning from the ECJ after the Bosman ruling, which surely sets a precedent that uefa should be very conscious of.

 

[Gordyola]

That is exactly it. It doesn’t mater whether you agree with the rules or not. If you break them you should be punished. You may not agree that a speed limit on a certain road is 20, but that doesnt matter, if youre caught doing 30 you will be fined and get points.

We have to be able to accept the decision and say fair enough we broke the rules and should be punished by those rules. At the same time as saying we dont agree to those rules and fair enough to the club for having a go regardless and pushing those rules to their limit. We’ve had a blast while they did so and no one can ever take those memories away.

I fear we as a fanbase get so worked up that there is an agenda at the top of the sport (which there probably is giving it is self governed by the same clubs that would do us harm). But that can not be assumed to be the case at cas. If cas (supposed independent legal body) validate the verdit we have to accept it and move on with whatever comes our way as a result. Otherwise we really will look blinkered and petty

It’s far to simplistic to say rules are rules, City had to agree to the t&c to enter UEFA’s competition, to not do so would seriously damage City commercially effectively they had no option, and they tried their level best to adhere. UEFA though, changed the criteria to catch City out despite this, and for the greater good City agreed a “pinch” UEFA and the old guard weren’t satisfied with this and have gone after City again. So now City are contesting the t&c as they every right to do so, any contract it can be challenged, even though initially accepted as they had to accept or as I said be damaged commercially

 

[Woody135]

Surely the way the rules are applied and the fairness with which they're applied will have a bearing on how the verdict is received also. If other clubs, especially our rivals, misdemeanors are ignored and we are seen as being signalled out for unfair treatment, then simply accepting it and moving on whilst all we've achieved is undermined, may prove difficult.

My personal opinion of our achievements will not be undermined. The opinion of others is already made up irrespective of guilt.
However we don’t know that anyone elses have been overlooked. There have been ffp fines and bans handed out beyond just to us, albeit ours is the strongest yet. But seemingly this is because of supposed lies and deception rather than actually failing ffp.
All I’m saying is we cannot in hindsight make a fuss about the rules after breaking them when we publically didnt in the past.
If we broke them we broke them