COVID-19 — Coronavirus

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Burnham won't back down on tier 3 unless there is more money on offer, and then he would reconsider?

They are hardly the actions of a person who is putting the health of Manchester first, either!

Added to the fact he has already said he would actually support another national lockdown, he's making himself look even more stupid than Boris.

The Manchester public would be impacted just the same.

He's making it a party issue and sending the same confusing messages.

The truth is there is no money left, we threw it in an obvious blind panic the first time around, the wider economy is already tanked.

The money now on offer is essentially the best it's gonna get, in a bid to just kick the can down the road a little while longer and help the NHS save as many lives as possible before hopefully a vaccine is rolled out.

Genuine question. How do you expect those people on close to minimum wage already to survive on 67% of their wages? How do you expect them to pay their rent? How do you expect these businesses to survive? I totally understand the health argument, of course I do, but it's not exactly an unreasonable point is it? There's no right or wrong stance here. Either one ruins lives.

67% is absolutely awful for those in low income jobs. They were already on the breadline most likely at 100% of their wage. This tier 3 will throw tens of thousands of people, if not more, into financial ruin. That will then destroy lives too. He has every right to try and fight for 80%. Some people might have a chance of salvaging their lives then before inevitable ruin.

I'm amazed at how many are just ignoring this side of the argument as if its not an issue at all.

EDIT - his argument for a national lockdown is that everyone would then be supported equally and fairly. It's a totally fair point. I just can't get how many are willing to accept that the government can tell businesses 'hey - you're not allowed to trade or exist now for a bit' and that the government can then not fully compensate them for it. As if its somehow the fault of the businesses and they have to pick up the tab. It's callous as fuck. Most of these businesses have spent thousands already trying to make their work places covid safe. What can they do? If the government tells them they can't operate anymore, they should support them fully. It really is that simple.
 
How many people lose their income at tier 3?

National lockdown would come with a similar financial package to the first lockdown, you would expect.

In relation to Burnham’s stance: poverty, mental health, homelessness etc outweighs current virus risks.

Of course, but I very much doubt a national lockdown would come with the same furlough terms as the last one?

If they did, the levels of poverty and mental health issues currently being experienced would be nothing compared to what will happen further down the road, certainly if the banks go under or supply chains are broken.

I don't know what the answers are, truly.

I see many of our issues being that the entire country is irrevocably divided now along political and personal national interests, mostly stemming from the Brexit debacle and austerity going back until 2009.
 
This is the right thread to post stupid ideas and theories about Covid in isn't it? Mine is that I reckon we are probably about a month away from hitting what I call 'stupid herd immunity'. Basically my theory, which is based on absolutely no scientific data or knowledge whatsoever, is that the virus will eventually rip through about 60% of the people who are just ignoring all of the advice, not wearing masks, not social distancing etc. Once its done that it will start to find it harder to jump to the people who are doing the right things and cases will then start to fall away!
The new rules will capture this though, you can't ignore a mask or fail to socially distance in a pub that isn't open. If cases continue to get worse than we'll be moved closer to where we were in the Spring which is you aren't allowed outside except for essential travel.

In terms of immunity, no-one knows how long immunity lasts after infection so herd immunity would be a stupid thing to go for unless we can infect everyone at the same time. That isn't going to happen though as the amount of people who have the virus today is still extremely low (less than 0.01%). This is supposed to be what a vaccine is for, to fill the gaps we have in immunity where the virus then eventually dies out in the unvaccinated stronger population.

What people need to understand about this second wave is it isn't a second wave. Lancashire and the NW was mostly untouched by the first wave, in the borough where I live in Lancashire there were only 107 deaths for the entirety of March-July. This is the first wave for the North and that's why complacency compared to then could be a killer.

Lockdown up here was completely unnecessary in March and that's why Andy Burnham is quite rightly questioning why when it's London it has to be panic stations for the whole country. But, when it's the North they have seeked to stick us in a cage and protect the rest from harsh measures.
 
We can afford apps that cost 12 billion but can’t afford a barmaid/barman’s wage for a fortnight. Come on!

Money is cheap.

What is the cost of doing V not doing.

Tier 3 won’t work as per SAGE and a national lockdown doesn’t have public buy-in due to the lack of trust in the government.

Pay people to stay at home wether that is to should or care of family members if we have to but reinforce the masks, social distancing etc and try and keep the tills ringing
 
Genuine question. How do you expect those people on close to minimum wage already to survive on 67% of their wages? How do you expect them to pay their rent? How do you expect these businesses to survive? I totally understand the health argument, of course I do, but it's not exactly an unreasonable point is it? There's no right or wrong stance here. Either one ruins lives.

67% is absolutely awful for those in low income jobs. They were already on the breadline most likely at 100% of their wage. This tier 3 will throw tens of thousands of people, if not more, into financial ruin. That will then destroy lives too. He has every right to try and fight for 80%. Some people might have a chance of salvaging their lives then before inevitable ruin.

I'm amazed at how many are just ignoring this side of the argument as if its not an issue at all.

Genuinely, I don't have the answers, either.

What I do know as someone who grew up around real poverty, 80 per cent or 67 per cent of a shit sandwich still makes it a shit sandwich.

Doesn't make it right, but, then again, is it right that someone on £200k a year would also be able to sit at home on 67 per cent of that?

Perhaps, instead of a one size fits all (because the economy seriously can't afford it) those who need it and can demonstrate it, get the 80 per cent?

I suppose I am also bitter that I have not been entitled to a single penny of government assistance since day one, which is hard for me to accept when people, regardless of means, are basically demanding to get their second piece.
 
Excellent thread from a numerate MP (!) on why the Great Barrington Declaration and the concept of herd immunity through community infection is bollix

 
More news about 15 minute Covid tests and the ability to perhaps test a million people a day as we approach xmas. Add in being a week closer to a vaccine and a week further through winter and I think we will start to see light at the end of the tunnel soon.

the negatives amongst us will sneer but people across the world are working so hard to solve this situation. It will pass.
It will pass obviously, but your assertion that we're "a week further through winter" is daft, because winter hasn't even started yet, hell we're still on british summertime for another 2 weeks, true "winter" is often not till after christmas. The "light at the end of the tunnel" is the entrance we've just come through, it could well be a very long tunnel yet.
 
Instead of closing gyms the Govt should fund the opening of even more gyms ,parks ,access to a bit of safe walking areas and get the obese people of this Country off their lard arses and doing something about their own bodies instead of waiting for the NHS to inject them or give them a gastric band.
My wife's just done the 14 days after symptoms started and then testing positive and to be fair I've had worse hangovers. She is 70+ fit,active and healthy because she exercises and eats well.
I take your point about shutting gyms and, without making this political, Boris Johnson said the same that he suffered because he was obese.
The problem isn't necessarily the gyms, but the lack of basic covid hygiene and social distancing in some of them.

I've just gone back to work on a 'fazed return' after 25 days off. I'm reasonably fit for 50. Prior to my symptoms and subsequent positive test I exercised for well over an hour a day at least 4/5 days a week. I eat pretty well but I'm still struggling with fatigue. I come home from work and need an hour or twos sleep.
I've supped some beer over the years but this is the worst 'hangover' I've ever had.
 
It’s not and this is the source of my frustrations. There’s no need for them to make stuff up and I will wager nobody will call them out on it.
GM hospital admissions less today than yesterday, ventilator beds up by 3.
The problem here is that the Government are receiving raw base data and then manipulating it to create the narrative in support of their policies and ideas. You could easily create graphs to tell the opposite story.

For example, the daily death rate of people who gave had the virus is at its lowest ever level.... Lies, Damn Lies and statistics"

We need to be smart enough to not just be spoon fed and believe everything they say!
 
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