737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

[inbetween]

The worst part of the MCAS debacle was that if they’d simply told us what it was and that disconnecting the SPEED TRIM would stop it, no-one would have died.

Indeed, one of the crews did disconnect it, but by instinct not an MCAS checklist, so they turned it back on, and then it killed them!

I’d probably have died in the first crash, because it happened so quickly, without knowledge and the aircraft seemed to be TRYING to kill them.

In the second event, insidious though it was, I think it was survivable.

I was flying the MAX at the time of those crashes and was as outraged as everyone else when we heard about MCAS, because “but for the grace of God…!”

It reminds me very much of the AF447 crash, unlike the MAX crashes that was a slow and consistently bad mismanagement of the situation by the crew.

One contributing factor was the fact that the copilot was sat with his sidestick pointing the nose to the sky, the opposite of good stall recovery. The captain had no idea about this because the sidesticks aren't physically linked and so he couldn't see to challenge the inputs, he did ask eventually but then it was too late.

Anybody from outside would argue that the sidestick design by Airbus contributed to cause the accident. This is actually true in terms of the design but it doesn't account for the fact that the pilots acted outside of the bounds of what is required.

With MCAS and the MAX crashes the pilots similarly did act outside of the bounds of what is required and the aircraft crashed. The difference I guess is they acted unwittingly because the system was so poorly documented and that's where Boeing will have to answer for its sins.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

@inbetween the only thing I would say is that the Captain was in the bunk and came back into the flight deck to see his two FOs unable to figure out what had happened.

He had the rare good fortune to have not seen all the previous commotion and immediately recognized they were in a stall. That’s when the crew found out the FO had the sidestick controller full aft.

One wonders exactly when the Captain knew the guy had killed them all, but it was too late to do a damned thing about it by then.

And, yes, Boeing’s was a sin of omission, not commission!

 

[Nethermoor]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

 

[hampshireblue]

Nah, you’d just leave it in your packed pants in the cargo hold anyway! ;-)

The 787 is highly automated, when we want it to be, and I could (and do!) literally program it to fly from Chicago to São Paulo, Brazil (about 9:30-10:00 hour flight) and land. At 200 feet I could turn on the autopilot and after raiding the flaps, go to bed for 9 hrs and get up to watch it land, after slowing down and extending the gear & flaps.

We don’t because ATC is constantly changing our flight plans and we manage the systems, but in an emergency you own the skies and you tell them what you’re doing, not the other way around!

Plus, you’d be surprised how many doctors, nurses and pilots are on aircraft at any given time!

We don't change the FPL for fun-there's job preservation to think about!! lol

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Don’t give up on it if only money is standing in your way! Nearly every non-military pilot borrows the money to learn to fly, if they want to make a career of it. My own son is doing his multi-Engine rating right now and already has an instructor job lined up in May to build his time.

He started out at zero time and is about $100,000 in for 350 hours and Private, Instrument, Commercial, Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, and now Commercial Multi-Engine. Once he gets 1,500 hrs, he’ll do his ATP and go to the airlines. For reference, the 4 yr degree flight school I went to is now $250,000!

If he gets to my airline before I retire in 4.5 yrs, between his grandfather, his father and himself (if he stays until retirement), we will have exactly ONE CENTURY of flying (1966-2065) with the airline!

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

I doubt it was an outside-inside leak. If it was dripping on him from above, it was probably an air conditioning condensation leak. Conversely, it wouldn’t be the first passenger water battle leaking in the overhead I’d ever seen, either!!

That said, if it was coming from the emergency exit, I hope he reported it to the flight attendants, as they’re required to inform the flight crew. I’m sure it was a loose seal. We usually get those more on the entryway doors, and the problem is not so much water entry but they can squeal like nobody’s business at certain speeds and altitudes!! Flight attendants love that!!!

See something, say something!

 

[Nethermoor]

Don’t give up on it if only money is standing in your way! Nearly every non-military pilot borrows the money to learn to fly, if they want to make a career of it. My own son is doing his multi-Engine rating right now and already has an instructor job lined up in May to build his time.

He started out at zero time and is about $100,000 in for 350 hours and Private, Instrument, Commercial, Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, and now Commercial Multi-Engine. Once he gets 1,500 hrs, he’ll do his ATP and go to the airlines. For reference, the 4 yr degree flight school I went to is now $250,000!

If he gets to my airline before I retire in 4.5 yrs, between his grandfather, his father and himself (if he stays until retirement), we will have exactly ONE CENTURY of flying (1966-2065) with the airline!



I doubt it was an outside-inside leak. If it was dripping on him from above, it was probably an air conditioning condensation leak. Conversely, it wouldn’t be the first passenger water battle leaking in the overhead I’d ever seen, either!!

That said, if it was coming from the emergency exit, I hope he reported it to the flight attendants, as they’re required to inform the flight crew. I’m sure it was a loose seal. We usually get those more on the entryway doors, and the problem is not so much water entry but they can squeal like nobody’s business at certain speeds and altitudes!! Flight attendants love that!!!

See something, say something!

I guess it's not so much the cost, it's the cost of living. I'm 37 with a mortgage and a daughter :D oh and the dog....

It's an ace story though mate 100 years between you all is incredible. Absolutely love it!


He did tell the FA's. I think it was some sort of seal or air con leak. I thought it was funny to be honest. And the fact the plane was reasonably new.

In fact the other year when Jet 2 were receiving their brand new 737-800's from Boeing, one had been in service a week. There was a hydraulic problem inbound to LBA and they couldn't drop the landing gear. Police Helicopter was up to watch them trying to sort it. In the end they did it manually and landed safely. Wouldn't have liked to have being the staff member at Boeing receiving that phone call... about that expensive Airplane you sold us last week....

 

[tailspin747]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

The Cadet schemes are an amazing opportunity and also the route I took (25 years ago). The next Speedbird Academy window for applications will open on 16th April.

Your Speedbird Pilot Academy Application Preparation

Prepare here to apply for the Speedbird Pilot Academy: British Airways' fully funded programme to become a BA pilot.

careers.ba.com

Good luck

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH/VNAV on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?

It's just very blasé to suggest 'almost anyone' could be talked through and paints a rather over-simplistic image of reality. Obviously all the above assumes your average punter would work out how to use the radio (on the right frequency) to be able to talk to you in the first place, then not bugger up the speed and energy management, not make an incorrect selection throwing things into chaos etc etc.

 

[hampshireblue]

Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH/VNAV on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?

If both pilots incapacitated, I guess getting on the flight deck may be a challenge!

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Well he is a training captain-what's your qualification?

With today's level of automation which he refers to, it's perfectly possible. It's highly likely that as long as the FMC is correctly programmed the actual controls would require no further input even to the point of the aircraft stopping on the runway.

Seeing as you ask - almost 20 years experience on Bombardier, Embraer, Boeing and Airbus types and currently flying the same aircraft as he does. I'm well aware how an autoland works but the idea 'almost anyone' can just jump into a seat and be talked down is just oversimplistic in my humble view. He has a different view which is fine.