Aguero's disallowed goal

Having left Manchester 4 years ago and now living in San Francisco, I’ve become a fan of the NFL and how they use their video replay rules. Their rule, roughly, is that if there is clear evidence of a wrong decision, it’s overturned. If it looks like a mistake, but it’s not clear and obvious, then the original decision must stand. I thought it was the same with VAR? Therefore was Otamendis hand ball last week a clear and obvious error? I didn’t think so, therefore the corner should’ve stood.... with Aguero, I believe if the linesman had kept his flag down, as he was supposed to be doing these days, and the goal was given, would there be enough evidence to overturn Aguero’s goal? Is it clear and obvious? I’m not sure. Therefore, potentially the goal could have stood and we were shafted to some extent... do you lot agree or am I getting this completely wrong?

Meanwhile, one thing we can learn from the NFL is the clarity for the fans in the stadium. All refs are micd up, and when there’s a review they get the decision and announce it to the crowd eg “offside, defence, no 25. Five yard penalty, replay first down” etc.., it would be surely easy to mic the refs and let them announce the decision so at least we’d know. Indirectly it may stop the swearing and increase respect to refs if players know they’re on audio. Whatever they decide, it’s madness to have no communication with thousands of paying customers other than a hand gesture!
 
I know full well it isn't a goal and I'm also aware of your comments earlier in the day about the type of camera used/camera positions, 3D etc.

Part of the problem here with the Aguero goal is that VAR only released a handful of images to SKY. It would be interesting to see the full range of images so you can have greater confidence (or not) in the technology.

So now you’re not confident whether you’re talking bollocks or not?
 
Having left Manchester 4 years ago and now living in San Francisco, I’ve become a fan of the NFL and how they use their video replay rules. Their rule, roughly, is that if there is clear evidence of a wrong decision, it’s overturned. If it looks like a mistake, but it’s not clear and obvious, then the original decision must stand. I thought it was the same with VAR? Therefore was Otamendis hand ball last week a clear and obvious error? I didn’t think so, therefore the corner should’ve stood.... with Aguero, I believe if the linesman had kept his flag down, as he was supposed to be doing these days, and the goal was given, would there be enough evidence to overturn Aguero’s goal? Is it clear and obvious? I’m not sure. Therefore, potentially the goal could have stood and we were shafted to some extent... do you lot agree or am I getting this completely wrong?

Meanwhile, one thing we can learn from the NFL is the clarity for the fans in the stadium. All refs are micd up, and when there’s a review they get the decision and announce it to the crowd eg “offside, defence, no 25. Five yard penalty, replay first down” etc.., it would be surely easy to mic the refs and let them announce the decision so at least we’d know. Indirectly it may stop the swearing and increase respect to refs if players know they’re on audio. Whatever they decide, it’s madness to have no communication with thousands of paying customers other than a hand gesture!

I have the impression that the people who are operating VAR, whether it be Sky, BT, Uefa, FICKFUFA, the PL, our own much beloved FArce, do not have a simple, consistent, and transparent approach to the use of VAR. VAR is becoming a technological extension of the outcomes of refereeing a game with a semi-fit, clinically obese, partially-sighted single official who just can't keep up with play, see what has gone on, realise a lino has got it wrong and deliver a result which reflects exactly what has gone on during the game. The Ottamendi handball is a great example of VAR giving a penalty one week and a corner the next or, as I suspect is more the case, giving a penalty v City and a corner when the arm belongs to a Dipper or a Rag!
 
Your right Bill changing stuff every year. The old saying if it’s not broken

It's hugely broken. In about 80% of City's big games for the last several years a dodgy decision has been a major talking point. Think about the Young red card/penalty not given last season, the wrongly disallowed Sané goal vs Liverpool, Sterling's 'handball' that never happened against Spurs a few years ago, Koscielny late handball in the box at 2-2, David Luiz being let off of a clear red card in the game that gave Chelsea advantage in the title race.

City (and other clubs) cannot keep being robbed of points by terrible officiating. If there was VAR, for example, Liverpool would be several points worse off for all the offsides/dodgy penalties they've had and there'd barely be a title race to speak of. It's not perfect yet but when they've had time to get it sorted it'll be fine.

Champions League is different because we know UEFA are corrupt and we know they hate City. It's as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 to figure out they will never let us win their competition, with or without VAR.
 
I know full well it isn't a goal and I'm also aware of your comments earlier in the day about the type of camera used/camera positions, 3D etc.

Part of the problem here with the Aguero goal is that VAR only released a handful of images to SKY. It would be interesting to see the full range of images so you can have greater confidence (or not) in the technology.
I don't remember saying anything about the type of camera. If I did it will be rubbish as I don't know anything about cameras.

I agree with your other point.

Logically they must have tested this, but they are forgetting that football is mass spectator sport. If they are going to make changes to how the game is refereed, then they should showcase the technology they are using.

With the goal-line technology, everyone has 100% confidence in it. The evidence was compelling.

I am hoping that the VAR has got more to go off than images taken from an angle which introduce apparent error. You can't use these images on there own as we have seen with the photos of the Liverpool 'goal' when viewed from an angle. They must have tested this. Clubs must have reviewed it. If the system works, then they should use one of there real-life examples to justify how they came to their decision. They must be able to make these calls, and in my opinion a club should be able to query these calls afterwards, certainly in the opening year of its operation. Only then will we know if it works. At the minimum show the evidence to football clubs. If the aggrieved club is satisfied, then the supporters will largely be satisfied.

I am 95% sure that VAR works for these type of calls, because referees and football clubs must have been party to its implementation.

My natural thought when VAR came in was well maybe it will be good for absolute objective calls, but for interpretation over the laws of the game like the Otamendi handball at Schalke (was it deliberate handball or not?), I thought maybe not. Now I am wondering if the whole system is good enough. City have had two cases of VAR in huge matches now, and in both cases the results are questionable based on the material we have seen. Some calls will always be questionable, but offside calls where there is no judgement call, should be verifiable.

Football is a Billion pound industry. Marginal calls in finals have a huge impact. We're trusting that UEFA and the Football regulators know what they are doing. Almost certainly they do, but why not finish the job off properly and use a real-world example of an off-side call to explain how the measurement was made?

I am beginning to suspect that maybe they are relying on a network of cameras around the ground to take their images but what do they do when the image is not in line. Is there then an adjustment made to allow for the perspective error that gets introduced? You would hope so. If there isn't then a linesman is better.
 
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So now you’re not confident whether you’re talking bollocks or not?

You said in an earlier post: Definitely onside. Definitely cheating us.

My View:
Looked offside in real time
Looked offside but closer than I thought when I saw the Sky replay
Definitely offside (but by a fraction) when blowing up the image provide by VAR and using foot position to determine the offside line.

My other reply was to Marvin who is concerned for different reasons about the technology.
 
It's hugely broken. In about 80% of City's big games for the last several years a dodgy decision has been a major talking point. Think about the Young red card/penalty not given last season, the wrongly disallowed Sané goal vs Liverpool, Sterling's 'handball' that never happened against Spurs a few years ago, Koscielny late handball in the box at 2-2, David Luiz being let off of a clear red card in the game that gave Chelsea advantage in the title race.

City (and other clubs) cannot keep being robbed of points by terrible officiating. If there was VAR, for example, Liverpool would be several points worse off for all the offsides/dodgy penalties they've had and there'd barely be a title race to speak of. It's not perfect yet but when they've had time to get it sorted it'll be fine.

Champions League is different because we know UEFA are corrupt and we know they hate City. It's as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 to figure out they will never let us win their competition, with or without VAR.

You are assuming those kind of decisions would be correctly given by v.a.r. after us being on the end of a series of dodgy v.a.r. decisions.

I would happily settle for being fucked over occasionally by v.a.r. if we got most v.a.r. decisions awarded fairly.

I think Mo The Dive, will still get most of his penalties, as few have so far been called as dives by ex refs & punters after the games.

V.a.r. last year, gave Mo a penalty for throwing his hands up in the air & diving backwards, when touched on the shoulder by a West Brom defender, in spite of he fact the ball was sailing 10 feet over his head.

It also disallowed a West Brom goal, whilst in the video a Liverpool player was fouling a West Brom player, as the ball came in, but that apparently didn't matter. Utd committed several similar fouls on Liverpool last weekend, which v.a.r. could give, or not give & pundits would argue in its favour either way.

If Ferguson was still around, one of his main aims for next season, would be pressurising v.a.r. to gain an advantage, & he'd succeed.
 
You said in an earlier post: Definitely onside. Definitely cheating us.

My View:
Looked offside in real time
Looked offside but closer than I thought when I saw the Sky replay
Definitely offside (but by a fraction) when blowing up the image provide by VAR and using foot position to determine the offside line.

My other reply was to Marvin who is concerned for different reasons about the technology.

If you think it's fair to not allow that goal based on a yellow line 'pehaps' showing Aguero's heel as offside, provided it's the exact split second the ball was kicked, But to allow Harry Kane to get away with an identical one, where he was clearly leaning forward, over the line, with his whole upper body, then fair enough, it's correct.

I don't think the two decisions, at the same place, should have opposite outcomes, but I predicted that is exactly what would happen, if we found ourselves in that position.

Spooky.
 

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