Andy Burnham

[Blue Mist]

I have never been a devotee of public transport and haven't been a regular bus user in donkeys year however something that was evident in the 80's in Middleton seems both universal and evident still today. Thats the obligation placed on bus operators to run the wrong vehicles for certain times. I am thinking of when I lived on Grimshaw Lane and the 80 went past but its the same up here in North Yorkshire now still. Thats the requirement to run "full sized" buses whatever the time of day. I'll stick to the 80 but it applies round here now - rush hour morning and tea time the bus was full and most stops had people waiting for them - after 7pm they were still obliged to run double deckers that were all but empty ! Why? Surely it would be more cost effective to run a service off peak using vehicles in realistic numbers plus kinder to the environment? Some times a Transit mini-bus would have been enough but no a double decker with a guy coming home late from work and 2 youths on the way to a pub aboard rumbled and belched past regardless. In this day and age what about EV small buses off peak? If there is a rush easy enough to communicate with a central location and increase the service surely? Once every 15 mins rather than once an hour for an hour or so to meet demand? Just seems to be something that all the stake holders talk a good talk in but walk the walk they were walking in the 60's or 70's?

The phrase used by all bus operators is dead mileage. This is when a bus is running between the depot and the start of the route and therefore not earning. The bus companies do everything they can to keep this as low as possible, especially at 5 miles per gallon.
A double decker costs north of 130k. It leaves the depot at 6.30 and does not return until 11pm. Driver change overs are done in the town centre.
If they were to be taken off the road after rush hour your dead mileage is doubled. It would not be cost effective to have a bus running for 4-5 hours a day. Throw in the fact that Londons model is bus operators are only allowed buses under 3 years old !!!
Then you have to buy a whole new fleet of smaller vehicles to do the day time running. Again there is dead mileage and you need someone to take the bus to the change over point. That is extra cost for the dead mileage and drivers. (What do the drivers do for the rest of the shift once they have swapped the vehicles)
If you double your fleet where do you store them all ? Every depot I went to was rammed and I did the length of the UK.

In principle what you say is great but in practice it is not a working model.

 

[Blue Mist]

It might work if the mooted congestion charge came into place. Not arguing for or against it, but more people would use public transport if it did, especially if made affordable.

Affordable to passengers is different from affordable to bus companies. Please dont think I am talking about them making huge profits either. First Group shares were at one time £7.50. they are now about £1.10.
There is little money now in running a bus company so Burnhams idea seems to be get the rate payers to fund it.

 

[Rascal]

No, they cannot make a profit now. The council tax would be horrendous to cover it.
The tram has overtaken buses as the second choice form of transport by most. If they cant use their car people will use the Met.
It sounds great what Burnham has done but sadly it is just more political talk. He is going to bring the London model in. That only works because a very out dated overcrowded Tube is the only other option as driving is out of the question.
I was half way through a long post to @bluethrunthru which may explain it better but one thing I will put in here....
In 2007 the Labour Government brought in 'free' bus travel. Local authorities paid the fares claimed by the bus companies and got it back of central government. It was a gold mine. Every time a pensioner got on the bus they simply recorded a journey and claimed the highest possible ticket. The fact that the pensioner would likely be making a return journey meant 2 top price tickets were claimed. As a result here was an explosion in small bus companies all looking to cash in on this gold mine. Can you imagine how much the government were forking out if he/she took 4 journeys.

When the Conservatives came to power in their own right they simply said to the bus companies, we will pay the cost of a day rider/saver for that pensioner. That was simple economics but all the small companies went under as they were not sustainable.

I make that point because unless you are going to throw many millions at the problem free travel will not work.

Take the buses into public ownership so there is no profit motive and make it a service that serves the people, integrate it with metrolink which is also brought into public ownership and make all public transport free within Greater Manchester. Ban all cars from the City centre and make it pedestrian/cycles only and the cost benefit of a less polluted city centre means less money spent on health provision, also less money spent on road infrastructure. Compulsory purchase all city centre cap parking and build affordable housing which will regenerate the inner city.

Every time we look to involve private companies in what should be an essential public service it fails and is used as a cash cow for private business so a new model is needed. One that takes away the need for profit and acts in the interests of the people it should be serving.

We could have a traffic free City, huge health benefits, less spent on roads and have a transport system that actually serves the people not the capitalist class. If public transport is efficient, clean and safe it is a far better option than being sat a pot holed ridden Kingsway for an hour churning out harmful emissions and then clogging up the city with cars that stay unused all day. then doing the same in reverse on the way home.

Cars should be restricted to only those who cannot use public transport.

 

[Blue Mist]

Take the buses into public ownership so there is no profit motive and make it a service that serves the people, integrate it with metrolink which is also brought into public ownership and make all public transport free within Greater Manchester. Ban all cars from the City centre and make it pedestrian/cycles only and the cost benefit of a less polluted city centre means less money spent on health provision, also less money spent on road infrastructure. Compulsory purchase all city centre cap parking and build affordable housing which will regenerate the inner city.

Every time we look to involve private companies in what should be an essential public service it fails and is used as a cash cow for private business so a new model is needed. One that takes away the need for profit and acts in the interests of the people it should be serving.

We could have a traffic free City, huge health benefits, less spent on roads and have a transport system that actually serves the people not the capitalist class. If public transport is efficient, clean and safe it is a far better option than being sat a pot holed ridden Kingsway for an hour churning out harmful emissions and then clogging up the city with cars that stay unused all day. then doing the same in reverse on the way home.

Cars should be restricted to only those who cannot use public transport.

The one thing bus companies aren't is cash cows. Those days dried up when the Conservatives made them account for all the free journeys being claimed.
As stated earlier, a bus costs upwards of 130k, if we take it into council ownership who buys the buses or do we seize them from the private companies ?
Bearing in mind successive governments, labour as well as Tory, has reduced public ownership, care homes, street cleaning, refuse collection, all done to save on very expensive pensions, why would they suddenly take on thousands of drivers, mechanics etc to run a bus company.
The last time the buses were run by the councils, you yourself mentioned Selnec, they were shite, unreliable, no investment, poorly maintained etc etc. Why would it be different now ?
As for your last line, highlighted, it destroys your entire argument. In this country we have a personal choice. I can chose how I get about. If it is pissing down with rain the last thing I want to do is stand for 20 minutes for a bus that under council ownership would not arrive.

 

[mcfcphil]

The one thing bus companies aren't is cash cows. Those days dried up when the Conservatives made them account for all the free journeys being claimed.
As stated earlier, a bus costs upwards of 130k, if we take it into council ownership who buys the buses or do we seize them from the private companies ?
Bearing in mind successive governments, labour as well as Tory, has reduced public ownership, care homes, street cleaning, refuse collection, all done to save on very expensive pensions, why would they suddenly take on thousands of drivers, mechanics etc to run a bus company.
The last time the buses were run by the councils, you yourself mentioned Selnec, they were shite, unreliable, no investment, poorly maintained etc etc. Why would it be different now ?
As for your last line, highlighted, it destroys your entire argument. In this country we have a personal choice. I can chose how I get about. If it is pissing down with rain the last thing I want to do is stand for 20 minutes for a bus that under council ownership would not arrive.

£130k? You can treble that mate, at least.

 

[Rascal]

The one thing bus companies aren't is cash cows. Those days dried up when the Conservatives made them account for all the free journeys being claimed.
As stated earlier, a bus costs upwards of 130k, if we take it into council ownership who buys the buses or do we seize them from the private companies ?
Bearing in mind successive governments, labour as well as Tory, has reduced public ownership, care homes, street cleaning, refuse collection, all done to save on very expensive pensions, why would they suddenly take on thousands of drivers, mechanics etc to run a bus company.
The last time the buses were run by the councils, you yourself mentioned Selnec, they were shite, unreliable, no investment, poorly maintained etc etc. Why would it be different now ?
As for your last line, highlighted, it destroys your entire argument. In this country we have a personal choice. I can chose how I get about. If it is pissing down with rain the last thing I want to do is stand for 20 minutes for a bus that under council ownership would not arrive.

Misty so naive man

In my world you not get wet.

 

[Blue Mist]

£130k? You can treble that mate, at least.

Maybe I am out of touch, I seemed to remember 150k but thought I was wrong (too high)
I do remember when a driver went under a low bridge and made a 3 month old double into an open top. The bosses were nearly in tears.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Misty so naive man

In my world you not get wet.

You aren't going to nationalise rain clouds are you?

;)

 

[mcfcphil]

Maybe I am out of touch, I seemed to remember 150k but thought I was wrong (too high)
I do remember when a driver went under a low bridge and made a 3 month old double into an open top. The bosses were nearly in tears.

Yes mate it’s a very expensive do these days!

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

The one thing bus companies aren't is cash cows. Those days dried up when the Conservatives made them account for all the free journeys being claimed.
As stated earlier, a bus costs upwards of 130k, if we take it into council ownership who buys the buses or do we seize them from the private companies ?
Bearing in mind successive governments, labour as well as Tory, has reduced public ownership, care homes, street cleaning, refuse collection, all done to save on very expensive pensions, why would they suddenly take on thousands of drivers, mechanics etc to run a bus company.
The last time the buses were run by the councils, you yourself mentioned Selnec, they were shite, unreliable, no investment, poorly maintained etc etc. Why would it be different now ?
As for your last line, highlighted, it destroys your entire argument. In this country we have a personal choice. I can chose how I get about. If it is pissing down with rain the last thing I want to do is stand for 20 minutes for a bus that under council ownership would not arrive.

Thing is ... (with your argument ) is that you've focused on the bus network 'having to make a profit' .... Its an essential service and the only pressure on it should be to break even. Rascals right ... if we put in place an expanded MetroLink network (bit like the underground where you have the ability to move between lines without having to go into the town centre) integrated it with a bus network then that would negate the need for people to drive into the City Centre. People would make that decision of their own accord.

Its crazy that it costs less to fly to Ibiza with Ryanair than it does to get a day return from Sale to Manchester.

In terms of buying the buses back ..... how were they acquired by the bus companies in the first place? Were the given or sold?