Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Disingenuous remain MP's? Agree.

Revoke if they have the numbers and lets go to a GE.

Shit or get off the pot.

Without hearing what they actually said, I know they were not disingenuous. I suspect that's you, either not understanding or deliberately mixing up MPs talking about avoiding no deal now and no deal at the end of transition.

 

[mcfc1632]

In your opinion.

I’m always wary of people who speak with such certainty. To me it betrays a lack of critical thinking.

Perhaps you could back up your assertion with some logic.

Is that a deliberate wind up, or have you no mirrors in your house?

 

[blueinsa]

Strange when the same guy said quite clearly that they either hadn't seen the document or hadn't had the time to study it...

Its disingenuous bullshit mate.

 

[blueinsa]

Without hearing what they actually said, I know they were not disingenuous. I suspect that's you, either not understanding or deliberately mixing up MPs talking about avoiding no deal now and no deal at the end of transition.

You suspect wrong.

 

[Bluemanc100]

Its disingenuous bullshit mate.

I know it is.. It's a shame others can't see this or refuse to acknowledge it

 

[Coatigan]

It will be interesting if the same ability to choose one or both nationalities is given to people both sides of the border as it is to those on the island of Ireland. Oh, and the English don't want a hard border either, otherwise there'll be trouble.

Highly hypothetical at this stage. Covered on the independence thread, no intention of derailing the brexit chat, but in a nutshell to save you the hassle - the 2014 stance was that brits in Scotland would have the automatic right, as would Scots abroad.
As i say, premature a discussion though.

 

[BobKowalski]

The Swiss have used referendums much more than we do and therefore have developed fail safe rules. As such that is democratic (in this instance, on a vote about tax, one side had claimed a figure of 80,000 couples when the the figure was in reality 500,000). I wouldn't mind developing the same system in the UK, but it needs testing on less important subjects first, methinks.

I was referring to the fact that some claimed that younger voters should have been included, which if they say that means they think the vote was not democratic.

So you can rerun a referendum and it still be democratic? Huge news.

I think voters in NI should have been told they were going to be sold off. Maybe we should ask them again? Seems only fair. But then they didn’t vote to be sold off in the first place so fuck ‘em. Have I got that right? U.K. rules on referendum are a tad confusing.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Really good post that

It will hopefully make a few look in the mirror - and be honest with themselves

Interestingly, if strong-minded people such as @Chippy_boy and @Ban-jani - I think also @gordondaviesmoustache ?? on this forum have come round to thinking that Leaving is necessary to get the country on a (slow) road to cohesion and recovery - then is it not possible/probable that is the emerging sentiment across the citizens of the UK.

Remainers have handled this quite badly IMO

Ha ha, so they are strong minded because they now support what you like. Does that make all of us millions that still believe Remain is the best option for the country weak minded then? Cohesion and recovery? Leave and then re-apply? Do me a favour.

Remaining is still the single most popular option.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Nope, still no better.

Remain had better realise this deal has been signed off by those they want to ride to the rescue again.

May's deal was signed off by the EU, from memory. That does not necessarily mean it is good for the country - but I suppose, after a scrutiny then we will potentially be able to find out if it does benefit the country

 

[BobKowalski]

Strange when the same guy said quite clearly that they either hadn't seen the document or hadn't had the time to study it...

Whether he read it or not I don’t know but the official opposition get prior access. I bet Stramer read it though and I bet he briefed Corbyn.

 

[yerwot?]

Despite the herd of elephants in the "debate", a common phrase/opinion is that the last three years of hand-bags, tub-thumping, your-lies-are-bigger-than-our-lies, will abate ignores the reality that this is merely the under-card to the main bout. Epitomised by "just get it done", as though the future will be somehow more "peaceful", and that parliament will morph into being "fit for purpose", representative even. The blase assumption that "a bit of pain" will resurrect the war-time "brave cockneys" defying Hitler, laughing kids playing in the rubble of the blitz, is pure fantasy, much blazoned by the msm, it plays to their agenda/audience. The mushroom tactic very much in evidence, just like the bull-shit-baffles-brains strategy. If/when we are pushed over the cliff of no-deal, the possibilty of serious civil disorder goes up to eleven. Millions previously content to watch corrie and eastenders, the disenfranchised, " they're all the same, i dont get involved" crowd, will suddenly find they are involved, some in a big way, whether through medicine shortages, house/job losses, travel disruption school closures, or cost of food, and travel restrictions. "Ooh look, project fear", except that little slogan is in tatters, every brexit promise broken, in disgrace, outed , leaving "we won you lost", As johnson comes in for very well deserved scorn, the tory faithful circle the wagons, coming up with ever-more arcane excuses for his venality. "He is a lying twat, but he is our lying twat", scratch a brexit reveal a tory...what's good for a tory is inevitably at the expense of the majority, even a cursory glance at their history proves beyond debate their ethos. The biggest obstacle to democracy is the tory party. The best chance for democracy is as a full committed member of the EU.
Bollocks to the tory/brexit plot....

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

So you can rerun a referendum and it still be democratic? Huge news.

I think voters in NI should have been told they were going to be sold off. Maybe we should ask them again? Seems only fair. But then they didn’t vote to be sold off in the first place so fuck ‘em. Have I got that right? U.K. rules on referendum are a tad confusing.

It's the legislation that causes the overturning of a referendum result but it has to be very clear. Our system has too many loopholes to be able to do that in comparison to the Swiss example you quoted. You live and learn ... or do it again and bugger the consequences.

 

[Blue Hefner]

On a wider point - I am about to lose a deal as the customer will not have anything to do the visa process between Japan/China for a variety of reasons such as cost, time, effort and potential liability. This company is a very big manufacturing company

With that in mind, I really can't see farmers getting involved in visa applications for seasonal workers and/or who the 'points based system' will work. In all likelihood, in my opinion, farmers will sell off the land as there is more money in development than there is in strawberries, never mind rotten strawberries. Nor can I see any of the land being sold off for affordable housing

So, more expensive housing and more expensive imported fruit and veg.

Just a theory

 

[Saddleworth2]

So you can rerun a referendum and it still be democratic? Huge news.

I think voters in NI should have been told they were going to be sold off. Maybe we should ask them again? Seems only fair. But then they didn’t vote to be sold off in the first place so fuck ‘em. Have I got that right? U.K. rules on referendum are a tad confusing.

confusing is one word for it.

 

[Ban-jani]

So you can rerun a referendum and it still be democratic? Huge news.

I think voters in NI should have been told they were going to be sold off. Maybe we should ask them again? Seems only fair. But then they didn’t vote to be sold off in the first place so fuck ‘em. Have I got that right? U.K. rules on referendum are a tad confusing.

They’re not being sold off to be fair, their new economic environment will be the most preferred in the UK.

 

[Blue Hefner]

 

[Saddleworth2]

No-brainer

And there is an ever-growing whiff of desperation in the way that you and others are clinging to this possibility of a 2nd ref

There is a chance for you though- albeit a receding one.

Labour have played it so badly that they are now reluctant to go for a GE whilst Johnson could be on a platform of getting Brexit completed - they clearly think that they will lose against that ticket.

So they may work with the rest of the pro-EU Westminster majority to try and remove Brexit through a 2nd referendum first. FFS - could you have imagined that 18 months ago???? Corbyn and MacDonnell willing to put off a GE for 6-9 months through admission that they would lose!!

And what does that suggest about the outcome of a 2nd ref?

Why - it only seems 2 years ago that you were exulting in daily statements about the number of Leavers that would have died off and how Remain would get a landslide - you do not come across so confident recently

Then if you really believe that, why not support one now. At the very least we would be voting for something a little more material than 'just leave'. it would also give the 12m who didn't vote in the first referendum a chance to have their say. It is still the quickest and most able way to bring this to a conclusion. Johnson's betrayal deal against Remain.

 

[blueinsa]

May's deal was signed off by the EU, from memory. That does not necessarily mean it is good for the country - but I suppose, after a scrutiny then we will potentially be able to find out if it does benefit the country

Do you believe the SNP, Greens, Lib Dems etc will scrutinise the deal and pass it if they think it is fair?

I dont, in fact they have an amendment to not even discuss it.

Can you not see the issue with their position here?

 

[BobKowalski]

They’re not being sold off to be fair, their new economic environment will be the most preferred in the UK.

True. If you are a Nationalist. Not so much if you are a Unionist when economics isn’t the guiding principle.

Also Nicola in Scotland is taking a keen interest in these new arrangements :)

 

[mcfc1632]

What is up with you two? This doesn't make it go away!

But it starts to

The 'Remain at all costs' cause is starting to resemble 'I would rather die in a ditch...'