Another new Brexit thread

[Ancient Citizen]

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I said way back that WHEN Boris comes back with a deal, they are fucked. Back it (and him) and they endorse a Tory government and Tory PM and sign their own death warrant in a forthcoming GE. Block it and they are seen as opportunistic wankers (that they are) putting their own interests ahead of the expressed wishes of the people, and get crucified in a forthcoming election. Decisions, decisions.

If the future of the Labour Party is your motivation and not the broader interests of democracy, then I guess blocking it is on balance Labour's least worst option.

Yep, Johnson coming back with a deal has caught them well unawares, and their immediate decision to call it a 'Terrible'
deal are the acts of desperation, vote for it, Johnson calls a GE not long after, and they're royally fucked. I saw the latest
yougov giving the Tories 44% against labour's 23%, if repeated in an election, that would be goodnight Vienna for them.
They know this only too well, which is why we're hearing mealy mouthed claptrap about aligning with the single market
and customs union, a ludicrous stance, as that essentially means staying in. Jess Phillips parroting the no deal fear mantra
and starting off again negotiating customs unions and single markets, now sounds fucking stupid, really.
So they're going to, with help from the Letwin amendment, obstruct, block, and frustrate, their problem in doing this is an
infuriated electorate, which will be even more infuriated that they are also blocking a GE.
They can't do this forever, it's looking like the public is well on Boris's side here, sooner or later they'll have to face the music,
if this is after 31Oct, hoping that the PM will suffer ridicule will also be futile, as everyone knows their tactics and reasons.

 

[Dubai Blue]

It seems ludicrous to me that the government are in such a rush to pass some of the most important legislation the UK has ever seen just so they can spare Johnson's blushes and meet an entirely arbitrary cut-off that his whole leadership campaign centred on.

This whole mess started with Cameron putting his own interests above the country's, and here we are again with another Prime Minister doing exactly the same.

If this genuinely is the right deal to finally take the country out of the EU, then surely it is only prudent to scrutinise it properly. Yes, some MPs will use this as an opportunity to scupper Brexit altogether, but that's not a valid reason to just throw common sense out of the window. Had Johnson not made his "do or die" pledge, there's no way the government would be in such a rush.

 

[Coatigan]

No it isn't

Inconvenient truth drop.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Nobody is or has ever advocated ignoring the result of the referendum.

Agree. Our political system has practically ground to a halt because an unworkable proposition was put forward in a referendum and it 'won'. 3 Years later we have done practically nothing else as a country. The reality is that brexit was a massive mistake. That is not ignoring the result - it is just being honest.

 

[RabidCity]

Agree. Our political system has practically ground to a halt because an unworkable proposition was put forward in a referendum and it 'won'. 3 Years later we have done practically nothing else as a country. The reality is that brexit was a massive mistake. That is not ignoring the result - it is just being honest.

Yes. In my view the referendum indicates a view of the British people to move away from the EU. This should be taken on board by government representatives and work towards the best way of unpicking our ties to Europe in an appropriate manner over the longer term.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Two questions should have been debated. There are 4 countries in this Union. How do we ensure any one nations views are respected in this process? How do we honour the GFA and does the answer guide us to the type of Brexit solution? Instead we got Tory red lines.

 

[adrianr]

It seems ludicrous to me that the government are in such a rush to pass some of the most important legislation the UK has ever seen just so they can spare Johnson's blushes and meet an entirely arbitrary cut-off that his whole leadership campaign centred on.

This whole mess started with Cameron putting his own interests above the country's, and here we are again with another Prime Minister doing exactly the same.

If this genuinely is the right deal to finally take the country out of the EU, then surely it is only prudent to scrutinise it properly. Yes, some MPs will use this as an opportunity to scupper Brexit altogether, but that's not a valid reason to just throw common sense out of the window. Had Johnson not made his "do or die" pledge, there's no way the government would be in such a rush.

What's worse is the sheer amount of people who are happy for him to do it, supposedly in the name of being 'fed up with it'. Well boo fucking hoo if your attention span isn't long enough to encompass the complexity of geopolitics. Tough shit. Still not learning our lessons that trying to rush things has caused far more problems than it's solved either.

 

[Coatigan]

Agree. Our political system has practically ground to a halt because an unworkable proposition was put forward in a referendum and it 'won'. 3 Years later we have done practically nothing else as a country. The reality is that brexit was a massive mistake. That is not ignoring the result - it is just being honest.

Agree, and it IS our mistake to make. And a second referendum can confirm that, now that the extents are known. Or it can re-examine it a bit more fairly.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Nobody is or has ever advocated ignoring the result of the referendum.

ha ha ha ha

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I think the German government should announce the imposition of 100% export duty on Werthers Originals when Brexit happens. That would make us revoke A50 within hours. Problem solved.

Werthers biggest customers were in London the other day waving placards telling us all to remain, have a look at
some of the crowd pics, grey gammons made up around 80% of them.

 

[Mike D]

Yep, Johnson coming back with a deal has caught them well unawares, and their immediate decision to call it a 'Terrible'
deal are the acts of desperation, vote for it, Johnson calls a GE not long after, and they're royally fucked. I saw the latest
yougov giving the Tories 44% against labour's 23%, if repeated in an election, that would be goodnight Vienna for them.
They know this only too well, which is why we're hearing mealy mouthed claptrap about aligning with the single market
and customs union, a ludicrous stance, as that essentially means staying in. Jess Phillips parroting the no deal fear mantra
and starting off again negotiating customs unions and single markets, now sounds fucking stupid, really.
So they're going to, with help from the Letwin amendment, obstruct, block, and frustrate, their problem in doing this is an
infuriated electorate, which will be even more infuriated that they are also blocking a GE.
They can't do this forever, it's looking like the public is well on Boris's side here, sooner or later they'll have to face the music,
if this is after 31Oct, hoping that the PM will suffer ridicule will also be futile, as everyone knows their tactics and reasons.

So why is he trying to bounce parliament into voting for his deal?

There is an extension about to be granted from the EU so why not just follow the law and do the 21 sittings that are required for a treaty ratification.

I think that you need to take those blue tinted spectacle because this is not a win win situation for Johnson people aren't stupid and more importantly neither are MP's.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

These people get paid a bloody good wage and have legal representatives in their midst so the sob stories don't work for me...

They need to focus on the amendments as they surely know the May deal inside out by now

It's not rocket science... a few evening sessions if needed are surely acceptable.. they want to have their cake and eat it these fuckers

The nation is waiting

They just said on the radio that MPs have had 500 hours to study the May deal... so this isn't difficult surely

The Lisbon treaty, far more detailed than this, was passed in 5 days.
Everybody can see what they're up to.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

So why is he trying to bounce parliament into voting for his deal?

There is an extension about to be granted from the EU so why not just follow the law and do the 21 sittings that are required for a treaty ratification.

I think that you need to take those blue tinted spectacle because this is not a win win situation for Johnson people aren't stupid and more importantly neither are MP's.

If you think Corbyn's antics on this are being welcomed, it certainly doesn't look like it, plus as above, the Lisbon treaty passed in 5 days.
As you so rightly say, people aren't stupid.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Two questions should have been debated. There are 4 countries in this Union. How do we ensure any one nations views are respected in this process? How do we honour the GFA and does the answer guide us to the type of Brexit solution? Instead we got Tory red lines.

That's the problem really. We are a member of the EU as the UK, not as four separate nations. If you take the winning position as the default for each country, this means that you have the wishes of 16M votes for leave in Wales & England vs 2.1M votes for remain in Scotland & N Ireland. Very tricky situation but you can see a clear vote difference there.

 

[dave_blue12]

Of course it’s my opinion, I’m the one saying it.

So no reasoned argument then.

Okay

 

[M18CTID]

Yep, Johnson coming back with a deal has caught them well unawares, and their immediate decision to call it a 'Terrible'
deal are the acts of desperation, vote for it, Johnson calls a GE not long after, and they're royally fucked. I saw the latest
yougov giving the Tories 44% against labour's 23%, if repeated in an election, that would be goodnight Vienna for them.
They know this only too well, which is why we're hearing mealy mouthed claptrap about aligning with the single market
and customs union, a ludicrous stance, as that essentially means staying in. Jess Phillips parroting the no deal fear mantra
and starting off again negotiating customs unions and single markets, now sounds fucking stupid, really.
So they're going to, with help from the Letwin amendment, obstruct, block, and frustrate, their problem in doing this is an
infuriated electorate, which will be even more infuriated that they are also blocking a GE.
They can't do this forever, it's looking like the public is well on Boris's side here, sooner or later they'll have to face the music,
if this is after 31Oct, hoping that the PM will suffer ridicule will also be futile, as everyone knows their tactics and reasons.

They've fucked it IMO. I said weeks ago on here that I felt Labour's best chance of winning an election was to agree to one when Johnson put it out there. At that time, the Tories were all over the place and there was little sign of Johnson getting us a Brexit deal or even seriously negotiating one. But no, people on here were saying it was a trap and Corbyn shouldn't take the bait. Now I'm not saying they would've won the election but they'd have had a much better chance than they will if one was held next week or next month.

 

[Metal Biker]

The Lisbon treaty, far more detailed than this, was passed in 5 days.
Everybody can see what they're up to.

 

[Ban-jani]

So no reasoned argument then.

Okay

With all due respect mate you can get stuffed.

All you ever say is “in your opinion”, “you think that”, “I don’t think that” and copy and paste Twitter posts, which I don’t necessarily mind but don’t have a pop at me, for not giving a reasoned argument, when I have already and your reply wasn’t a reasoned argument.

 

[Metal Biker]

With all due respect mate you can get stuffed.

All you ever say is “in your opinion”, “you think that”, “I don’t think that” and copy and paste Twitter posts, which I don’t necessarily mind but don’t have a pop at me, for not giving a reasoned argument, when I have already and your reply wasn’t a reasoned argument.

Frustrating, isn't it.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I heard he made a statement some 26 minutes before the amendments were published stating that @Labour would oppose it

Seeing that his academic achievements resulted in failed A levels, it's truly remarkable that he has the reading
skills of a NASA computer, his eyeballs must move at a faster rate than an Uzi emptying its magazine.