Another new Brexit thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ric
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
It managed to lose a campaign BY 600,000 VOTES that was almost impossible to lose because of illegal overspending by the Leave campaign and interference by Cambridge Analytica and for the last 3 years its not changed a single mind barely because of the failure of government and the electoral commission to investigate the matters properly.

Any sign of the Russia report yet?
Click to expand...
Who knew that elections boiled down to which argument spent the most money and not the collective decision based on millions of electorates votes.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
if you have finished your brief career as a satirical racist comic I will answer this for you.

1 not pay billions of pounds to the eu to be spent in Poland Portugal or Spain but instead in Plymouth Peterborough and Scunthorpe.

2 be able to have a managed global immigration system bringing in the best talent we need from around the globe.

3 be able to have a new trade agreement with Europe but leave the political system.

4 remove an unnecessary political level of beuracracy we have in our society. We have too many politicians in this country, even when we remove this layer.

5 forge new trade agreements on our own with other countries around the world.

6 decide ourselves what laws and regulations we want.

is that ok for you?

perhaps you could do me a favour and do a list all of those scare mongering stories that were pedalled by you and others that have come true. By now I am supposed to be Iiving in a cave eating roadkill.
Click to expand...

1 We make our money back through access to the biggest trading bloc in the world

2 Net immigration is higher from the rest of the world than the EU, shouldn't we look to control this first?

3 & 4 You've essentially made the same point here, why is having too many politicians a bag thing? Isn't more democracy a good thing?

5 Which trading agreements would you like to see that would see us more economically prosperous? Because we've already lost bucket loads of money and are now worse off

6 Which EU law do you dislike? Let's not forget that we do still have our own laws, for example Scotland's age of consent for marriage is 16 without parental consent, England is 18.

Oh and here's one of those negative stories that have come true because of brexit. The economy has had £130 billion wiped from it because of this nonsensical crap

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Imagine how much money could've been spent on the NHS instead, still at least the bananas will be all bendy.
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
1 We make our money back through access to the biggest trading bloc in the world

2 Net immigration is higher from the rest of the world than the EU, shouldn't we look to control this first?

3 & 4 You've essentially made the same point here, why is having too many politicians a bag thing? Isn't more democracy a good thing?

5 Which trading agreements would you like to see that would see us more economically prosperous? Because we've already lost bucket loads of money and are now worse off

6 Which EU law do you dislike? Let's not forget that we do still have our own laws, for example Scotland's age of consent for marriage is 16 without parental consent, England is 18.

Oh and here's one of those negative stories that have come true because of brexit. The economy has had £130 billion wiped from it because of this nonsensical crap

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Imagine how much money could've been spent on the NHS instead, still at least the bananas will be all bendy.
Click to expand...
1. We are negotiating still trading with that trading bloc, so we won't "lose out". We're going to be keeping all the things we agree with on trade, making a trade deal much easier to negotiate. What we're saying no to is the EU insistance that they should have some "control" over our markets once we leave. Now THEY are saying want their cake and eat it. Funny old world, innit.

2. Why? Is this because you hate migrants? Migration from all over the world wasn't an issue for every leave voter. We want the nation to be a skills-based system, not an "i have an EU passport" method.

3. More democracy is, yes. Less representation isn't. 1 MP currently represents the opinions and interests of around 104,000 people. 1 MEP represents 720,000. See the problem yet? The EU Parliament is an unnecessary stage of the political system that represents the view of the Commission, not the citizens, and the Commission is unelected.

4. We've lost money due to Parliaments unnecessary dragging out of the situation. Markets like stability.

5. The Lisbon Treaty is a pretty big policy that sticks in the craw. And then there are always the future policies. This was about halting the trend. We've reached the end of the road on accepting EU policies, which is why we're keeping the ones we've liked and saying "No more" to the future endeavours they have planned.

6. Again, see 4.
 
Last edited:
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
1 We make our money back through access to the biggest trading bloc in the world

2 Net immigration is higher from the rest of the world than the EU, shouldn't we look to control this first?

3 & 4 You've essentially made the same point here, why is having too many politicians a bag thing? Isn't more democracy a good thing?

5 Which trading agreements would you like to see that would see us more economically prosperous? Because we've already lost bucket loads of money and are now worse off

6 Which EU law do you dislike? Let's not forget that we do still have our own laws, for example Scotland's age of consent for marriage is 16 without parental consent, England is 18.

Oh and here's one of those negative stories that have come true because of brexit. The economy has had £130 billion wiped from it because of this nonsensical crap

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Imagine how much money could've been spent on the NHS instead, still at least the bananas will be all bendy.
Click to expand...
All of this is excellent and very well put. Point 5 is up for debate I suppose, and I find a lot of 'because of brexit' arguments are a bit of a reach as Brexit hasn't actually happened yet. There does seem to be a tendency from Remainers to seize upon any negative news since June 16 and say it's 'because of brexit'. Sadly all of the good points above were lost when the remain campaign decided to instead focus on a smear campaign against brexiteers instead of these actually much more important issues.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
1. we are negotiating still trading with that trading bloc, so we won't lose out.

2. Why? Is this because you hate migrants? Migration from all over the world wasn't an issue for every leave voter. We want the nation to be a skills-based system, not an "i have an EU passport" method.

3. More democracy is, yes. Less representation isn't. 1 MP currently represents the opinions and interests of around 104,000 people. 1 MEP represents 720,000. See the problem yet? The EU Parliament is an unnecessary stage of the political system that represents the view of the Commission, not the citizens, and the Commission is unelected.

4. We've lost money due to Parliaments unnecessary dragging out of the situation. Markets like stability.

5. The Libson Treaty is a pretty big policy that sticks in the craw. And then there are always the future policies. This was about halting the trend. We've reached the end of the road on accepting EU policies, which is why we're keeping the ones we've liked and saying "No more" to the future endeavours they have planned.

6. Again, see 4.
Click to expand...

1) We've already lost out, by £140 billion. You already know this, don't be intellectually dishonest

2) We need immigration for economic growth. I'd have kept freedom of movement much like you would have been an EFTA/EEA supporter. Personally immigration doesn't really bother me but I was pointing out how immigration could be controlled for those who believe we are currently suffering because of immigration

3) We are represented through the MEP system and have only ever voted against 2% of EU laws in the last 20 years.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

The UK agreed to the Lisbon treaty by a considerable majority, if the Lisbon treaty is such a bad thing, why is giving these same politicians more control a good idea since they're essentially one and the same in thought with the EU.

4) We've lost money because brexit is crap and are estimated to lose more money still in the upcoming years, read the article I linked in my previous comment.

5) See point 3, we've voted against 2% of EU laws since 1999. Obviously a 98% approval of EU laws would indicate that we're doing fairly okay in this department
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
All of this is excellent and very well put. Point 5 is up for debate I suppose, and I find a lot of 'because of brexit' arguments are a bit of a reach as Brexit hasn't actually happened yet. There does seem to be a tendency from Remainers to seize upon any negative news since June 16 and say it's 'because of brexit'. Sadly all of the good points above were lost when the remain campaign decided to instead focus on a smear campaign against brexiteers instead of these actually much more important issues.
Click to expand...

Read the article I linked on point 5, you'll find it interesting.

And yes remains campaign was crap but it doesn't make leaving the EU necessarily any better
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
1) We've already lost out, by £140 billion. You already know this, don't be intellectually dishonest

2) We need immigration for economic growth. I'd have kept freedom of movement much like you would have been an EFTA/EEA supporter. Personally immigration doesn't really bother me but I was pointing out how immigration could be controlled for those who believe we are currently suffering because of immigration

3) We are represented through the MEP system and have only ever voted against 2% of EU laws in the last 20 years.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

The UK agreed to the Lisbon treaty by a considerable majority, if the Lisbon treaty is such a bad thing, why is giving these same politicians more control a good idea since they're essentially one and the same in thought with the EU.

4) We've lost money because brexit is crap and are estimated to lose more money still in the upcoming years, read the article I linked in my previous comment.

5) See point 3, we've voted against 2% of EU laws since 1999. Obviously a 98% approval of EU laws would indicate that we're doing fairly okay in this department
Click to expand...
You said £130bn before. Now it's £140bn. It's going up every minute!

2. Yes, I know, and I support freedom of movement. I also accept an Australian style points system to make it fairer for all, not just European passport holders, and we can decide what those points will be and what perameters need to be reached, if any. Again, what is your point here?

3. Oh dear. Yes i've heard this argument before. You must also know then that is the last 10 years we have been increasing the percentage of what we disagree with. As the years go by, the UK is disagreeing more and more with the EU. We are going in opposite directions.

"The UK agreed the Lisbon Treaty by a considerable majority" oh deary deary me. Did we? Or was it a majority of "politicians", because we all know how public opinion is on that aspect. Then why are we in this position? I don't remember a referendum presented to the UK public on it's ratification.

The fact is the LT introduced the concept that "Members of the European Parliament would be on an equal legislative footing with the Council regarding EU agriculture and fisheries policy, trade policy, legal immigration and EU structural funds, to name just a few."

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...XT+IM-PRESS+20091009STO62247+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Europe was now deciding national policies that all members had to agree upon, not national governments. Follow it up with this "National Parliaments gain an increased role in EU decision making with the treaty giving them eight weeks in which to argue their case if they feel a draft law oversteps European Union authority."

and this

"Double majority in Council votes: The treaty changes the voting arrangements in the Council of Ministers. New arrangements mean that instead of voting by unanimity measures can now be carried if they have 55% of the votes in the Council from counties representing 65% of the EU's population."

And you should start to see the issue why people, like myself, who previosuly supported being an EU member, began to change our mind.

4. We haven't left the EU yet.

5. Again see point 3. We're disagreeing more and more as time goes by. We accepted being a member in the beginning but as time has gone on and the EU introduces more laws and policies, the UK finds itself rejecting them more and more. At what point do we say "enough is enough"? Well, those who voted to leave reached that point of no return and said no more, we'll keep what we've agreed thus far, but from now on we're going our separate ways.

This is a very simple and basic concept to grasp. It was working out fine, it isn't any more and the future relationship looked very bad indeed, so it was time to part ways.
 
Last edited:
Mëtal Bikër said:
You said £130bn before. Now it's £140bn.

2. Yes, I know, and I support freedom of movement. Again, what is your point here?

3. Oh dear. Yes i've heard this argument before. You must also know then that is the last 10 years we have been increasing the percentage of what we disagree with. As the years go by, the UK is disagreeing more and more with the EU. We are going in opposite directions.

4. We haven't left the EU yet.

5. Again see point 3. We're disagreeing more and more as time goes by. We accepted being a member in the beginning but as time has gone on and the EU introduces more laws and policies, the UK finds itself rejecting them more and more. At what point do we say "enough is enough"? Well, those who voted to leave reached that point of no return and said no more, we'll keep what we've agreed thus far, but from now on we're going our separate ways.

This is a very simple and basic concept to grasp. It was working out fine, it isn't any more and the future relationship looked very bad indeed, so it was time to part ways.
Click to expand...

1) I must've done a Dianne Abott, the article says 130 billion pounds. I got my conversion figures from dollars to pounds wrong since it's an American article

2) We're in agreement on this point by and large, I originally responded to the "We can control immigration" point from another poster.

3) So 2% in the last 20 years represents more and more disagreements? If we'd have disgragreed say 20% of the time I'd think you have a point potentially but as it is we're fairly in alignment with the EU's ideals.

4) I'm aware we haven't left yet but the brexit process has lost us billions that could've been invested in the UK's infrastructure, as it is it's been wasted on a project based off fear and at best exaggerations of truth.

5) Point 3
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
1 We make our money back through access to the biggest trading bloc in the world

2 Net immigration is higher from the rest of the world than the EU, shouldn't we look to control this first?

3 & 4 You've essentially made the same point here, why is having too many politicians a bag thing? Isn't more democracy a good thing?

5 Which trading agreements would you like to see that would see us more economically prosperous? Because we've already lost bucket loads of money and are now worse off

6 Which EU law do you dislike? Let's not forget that we do still have our own laws, for example Scotland's age of consent for marriage is 16 without parental consent, England is 18.

Oh and here's one of those negative stories that have come true because of brexit. The economy has had £130 billion wiped from it because of this nonsensical crap

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Imagine how much money could've been spent on the NHS instead, still at least the bananas will be all bendy.
Click to expand...


a load of cobblers. The UK has been doing a bit better than the Eurozone and a bit worse than the G7. Insofar as there’s been a cost of Brexit, it’s been the cost of delaying Brexit and the uncertainty of the last few Years. Even the FT is now on board.

Look at the response of metal biker . in terms of laws I don’t like the one that means we have to pay billions annually to be part of the trading club which other countries like Japan and Canada don’t have to and have the same trading rights . That’s a fairly big law I don’t like.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
a load of cobblers. The UK has been doing a bit better than the Eurozone and a bit worse than the G7. Insofar as there’s been a cost of Brexit, it’s been the cost of delaying Brexit and the uncertainty of the last few Years. Even the FT is now on board.

Look at the response of metal biker . in terms of laws I don’t like the one that means we have to pay billions annually to be part of the trading club which other countries like Japan and Canada don’t have to and have the same trading rights . That’s a fairly big law I don’t like.
Click to expand...

At least I've quoted sources in my cobblers I suppose, as opposed to your comment which is purely opinion.

Trading is about helping build a strong economy, we've lost loads of money since the brexit debacle started.

So the "I want to have our own trade deals" looks a bit of a weak point if we're economically worse off.

It's like paying money to access a market knowing for a fact you will come away making a profit
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
1) I must've done a Dianne Abott, the article says 130 billion pounds. I got my conversion figures from dollars to pounds wrong since it's an American article

2) We're in agreement on this point by and large, I originally responded to the "We can control immigration" point from another poster.

3) So 2% in the last 20 years represents more and more disagreements? If we'd have disgragreed say 20% of the time I'd think you have a point potentially but as it is we're fairly in alignment with the EU's ideals.

4) I'm aware we haven't left yet but the brexit process has lost us billions that could've been invested in the UK's infrastructure, as it is it's been wasted on a project based off fear and at best exaggerations of truth.

5) Point 3
Click to expand...
2. Yes we are in agreement, so there's no point discussing the matter with me.

3. No. that's 2% over the last 20 years. That's the time frame you've supplied. What has been the number of disagreements in the last 10 years of membership? 12%. You're like a United fan saying United are still the best team because they've won 13 Prem Titles in 28 years. Well how many have they won in the last 10? Bit of a difference, eh? As years have gone by we've become more and more disgruntled. In the beginning it was fine, nothing to disagree about. That's not the case anymore as the EU made more law changes to give itself more influence and power over it's members. In the end many of us reached our redlines on membership and said "enough is enough". Tell me, what redlines do you have about EU membership; what would cause you to say "enough is enough"? If you say "nothing at all", then you're technically a European Federalist, something the majority of the UK public are not, so you'll never be able to convince of your viewpoint as it would be one I vehemently oppose.

4. Because the "process" has been dragged out and delayed over 3 years! Who is responsible for that? Parliament!
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
At least I've quoted sources in my cobblers I suppose, as opposed to your comment which is purely opinion.

Trading is about helping build a strong economy, we've lost loads of money since the brexit debacle started.

So the "I want to have our own trade deals" looks a bit of a weak point if we're economically worse off.

It's like paying money to access a market knowing for a fact you will come away making a profit
Click to expand...
You've not read the full facts though, have you.

The UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years


In recent years the UK has been more often on the losing side of these votes.


Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
At least I've quoted sources in my cobblers I suppose, as opposed to your comment which is purely opinion.

Trading is about helping build a strong economy, we've lost loads of money since the brexit debacle started.

So the "I want to have our own trade deals" looks a bit of a weak point if we're economically worse off.

It's like paying money to access a market knowing for a fact you will come away making a profit
Click to expand...

so you like to pay billions for something that others can access for free? Makes sense .

Bloomberg is your source? Please feel free to look at how we are doing v the eurozone average on google. Do you think the German economy is doing well? Do you think that is because of brexit ?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
You've not read the full facts though, have you.

The UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years


In recent years the UK has been more often on the losing side of these votes.


Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.
Click to expand...

For the benefits we gain an 87% agreement rate is pretty decent imo for the benefits we get through the EU.

A stronger economy, freedom to live, work and be educated in some of the most beautiful places in the world without restriction. A shame that we'll lose all of these
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
so you like to pay billions for something that others can access for free? Makes sense .
Click to expand...


bc925a694d8d2770f21fbc6a10a3c059.gif
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
For the benefits we gain an 87% agreement rate is pretty decent imo for the benefits we get through the EU.

A stronger economy, freedom to live, work and be educated in some of the most beautiful places in the world without restriction. A shame that we'll lose all of these
Click to expand...
zlslr.jpg


The fact is, for a partner such as the UK, it should be 100%, if we really cared about the "project". We don't so let's make it about trade. 87% clearly says, "yeah, let's just make trade and work easier"

You're not restricted at all. You can still migrate, travel and work in the EU just as you can anywhere else in the world.

You're portraying a "remoaner" stereotype right now with these arguments, and i've already had them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top