Another new Brexit thread

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Please - do not embarrass yourself any further with your seeming neeeed to post utter fucking rubbish

There is a saying that - a little knowledge is dangerous.

You, given a level of accuracy with the first part of your post, amply demonstrate, given the rest of your naivety, that it is indeed damaging to any residual credibility that you have

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ou...should-know-about-private-finance-initiative/

 

[west didsblue]

I didn't mention the lease deal for fear that I would be labeled a 'Tory Basher'

But the plane is indeed leased over a 27 year period at a cost of £30 million a year ...

To buy it new would have cost the taxpayer £50 million .... Party of fiscal responsibility?

There’s plenty of scope for criticising this government and its predecessor Tory governments over the last ten years but the procurement of the Voyager fleet isn’t one of them. It was a PFI negotiated by the Labour government in the 2000s. The reality is that doing it by PFI will cost the country more over the life of the programme but it avoids the up front large development and procurement costs, but the finance costs for this are spread over the 27 years.

And a new Voyager aircraft would cost much more than £50m. A basic A330 without expensive modifications for AAR capability is around £200m per aircraft, so a Voyager would be at least double that with development costs amortised over a relatively short production run.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

It’s even better than that though. If we accept lower US food standards we’ve already said that we won’t lower ours, so cheap US meat coming here and better quality uk meat going to landfill. Still, the Mogster did say we’d get cheap food and shoes......

Keeping the grift going as long as they can. Its all a con that they are dragging out to the 11th hour.

No deal and our farming sector will be obliterated by cheap imports that we will be bound to accept under WTO tariffs and the same tariffs on our goods exported to the EU making them uncompetitive. Farming would become unsustainable overnight without massive ongoing government subsidy. Bottom line is there has to be a deal with the EU or we are fuck*d, tories know this, its like a game of how long can they keep pretending that the reality of global trade does not exist. BJ is well and truly boxed into the corner, he can do a deal accepting LPF and face the backlash from the alliance of arse holes (Farage, Hopkins, The Mail, The Express etc) or go for no deal and face the backlash from everyone when it goes to shit.

 

[mcfc1632]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/seven-things-everyone-should-know-about-private-finance-initiative/

Bless - you are lemming like in your need to dive in and embarrass yourself

You are seeking to take refuge in articles that you have not even read properly - certainly not considered anything beyond the headlines (as is your wont)

I guess the thread should be grateful that you have at least read the headlines on this occasion - even if you do not know enough on the subject to avoid embarrassing yourself

I did mention earlier that...…..​

Please - let's not take the thread down the path of the cost to the UK of, under Blair - but driven by Gordon Brown, Labour's obsession with PFI

I can see that is what you are wanting to do?

But if you really want to go head to head on this...….

 

[inbetween]

I didn't mention the lease deal for fear that I would be labeled a 'Tory Basher'

But the plane is indeed leased over a 27 year period at a cost of £30 million a year ...

To buy it new would have cost the taxpayer £50 million .... Party of fiscal responsibility?

£30m a year for one plane? I seriously doubt that is true. Do you not have this figure from the cost of the entire Voyager fleet (10 aircraft)? £3m a year to lease an aircraft sounds about right.

The cost of a plane over it's life isn't just the cost to buy it.

You need crews and maintenance to keep a plane going but these are usually included in a lease deal which is why leasing is cheaper.

The planes for example are flown by civilian RAF reservists employed by AirTanker. This is covered under the lease deal so the ongoing cost is fixed.

There is also the end of life problem, a £50m plane will be worth nothing to the taxpayer in 20 years time. In that period the taxpayer would of spent less to operate whilst not owning the plane and what happens after that is AirTankers problem.

 

[Vic]

Have we got a copy of the tender document for the shock and awe Brexit campaign?

I do like original sources for quotes like Brexit Voters are “less likely to prepare as they don’t believe in any potential negative consequences of leaving.”

 

[mcfc1632]

£30m a year for one plane? I seriously doubt that is true. Do you not have this figure from the cost of the entire Voyager fleet (10 aircraft)? £3m a year to lease an aircraft sounds about right.

The cost of a plane over it's life isn't just the cost to buy it.

You need crews and maintenance to keep a plane going but these are usually included in a lease deal which is why leasing is cheaper.

The planes for example are flown by civilian RAF reservists employed by AirTanker. This is covered under the lease deal so the ongoing cost is fixed.

There is also the end of life problem, a £50m plane will be worth nothing to the taxpayer in 20 years time. In that same period, the taxpayer would of spent less to operate and not own the plane than had it done the same and also owned it.

As I mentioned - inconvenient truths are so...……...

Every now and then the posters obsessed with Tory bashing (and, beyond Brexit, I am no Tory supporter) - bring up this 'silver bullet' (as they seem to see it) of PFI - not realising the reality of where responsibility for the scope of the use of PFI resides...….. -

There have been a few that keep blindly going down this path...…….

TBF - you are very respectful and gentle in your correction of their views - well done

 

[west didsblue]

Keeping the grift going as long as they can. Its all a con that they are dragging out to the 11th hour.

No deal and our farming sector will be obliterated by cheap imports that we will be bound to accept under WTO tariffs and the same tariffs on our goods exported to the EU making them uncompetitive. Farming would become unsustainable overnight without massive ongoing government subsidy. Bottom line is there has to be a deal with the EU or we are fuck*d, tories know this, its like a game of how long can they keep pretending that the reality of global trade does not exist. BJ is well and truly boxed into the corner, he can do a deal accepting LPF and face the backlash from the alliance of arse holes (Farage, Hopkins, The Mail, The Express etc) or go for no deal and face the backlash from everyone when it goes to shit.

It’s odd that the Brexit bullshitters on here never want to discuss these realities but would rather latch on some trivia and say nothing at all what will happen next year without a deal.

I’m still waiting for a coherent response from just one of them as to how we get round MFN next year without a deal. A bit of oomph just won’t cut it.

Surely there’s more than 40 Tories that will stand up for the UK and will join the opposition in making sure we don’t sleepwalk into oblivion next year.

 

[Vic]

Please - do not embarrass yourself any further with your seeming neeeed to post utter fucking rubbish

There is a saying that - a little knowledge is dangerous.

You, given a level of accuracy with the first part of your post, amply demonstrate, given the rest of your naivety, that it is indeed damaging to any residual credibility that you have

A level of accuracy? You mean it's true.

"PFI was initiated by John Majors Conservative Government"

True or false?

(I can only surmise that your vehemence about this topic means you missed out on a PFI contract for supplying bullshit.)

 

[inbetween]

As I mentioned - inconvenient truths are so...……...

Every now and then the posters obsessed with Tory bashing (and, beyond Brexit, I am no Tory supporter) - bring up this 'silver bullet' (as they seem to see it) of PFI - not realising the reality of where responsibility for the scope of the use of PFI resides...….. -

There have been a few that keep blindly going down this path...…….

TBF - you are very respectful and gentle in your correction of their views - well done

Going off my experience of government departments and the way things work nowadays... There isn't a chance in hell that there are droves of people working out how to spend more money than is needed.

There is zero reason to own a depreciating asset when it can be leased, everyone knows that and I'm sure the government does too.

I think another reason why this plane is being painted is because previously it was repainted once a year anyway to be leased out to Thomas Cook for the summer..... Obviously that isn't happening anymore.

 

[Vic]

Going off my experience of government departments and the way things work nowadays... There isn't a chance in hell that there are droves of people working out how to spend more money than is needed.

There is zero reason to own a depreciating asset when it can be leased, everyone knows that and I'm sure the government does too.

I think another reason why this plane is being painted is because previously it was repainted once a year anyway to be leased out to Thomas Cook for the summer..... Obviously that isn't happening anymore.

I'm not sure why Johnson needs a 380 seat plane anyway. Or why he needs a plane at all. A hot air balloon would do, and self-propelled too.

 

[inbetween]

I'm not sure why Johnson needs a 380 seat plane anyway. Or why he needs a plane at all. A hot air balloon would do, and self-propelled too.

Voyager is the only suitable transport plane that is both on the military register and can fly far enough.

It's primary purpose is air-to-air refuelling which we pay for anyway, not carrying MP's.

 

[bluethrunthru]

If we are going to trade boomerangs with the Aussies can we import their Sorry Day to boil Britain Firsts piss even further...?

 

[mcfc1632]

Going off my experience of government departments and the way things work nowadays... There isn't a chance in hell that there are droves of people working out how to spend more money than is needed.

There is zero reason to own a depreciating asset when it can be leased, everyone knows that and I'm sure the government does too.

I think another reason why this plane is being painted is because previously it was repainted once a year anyway to be leased out to Thomas Cook for the summer..... Obviously that isn't happening anymore.

You offer to much in the way of sensible thinking / logic

Whereas people just look for an headline that can be used to feed their neeeed to express their agenda of hate

But when they start on the subject of PFI I have a proper chuckle at the ignorance I see

I get tempted to provide some facts - but I can no longer be bothered to engage with some of them

 

[mcfc1632]

Going off my experience of government departments and the way things work nowadays... There isn't a chance in hell that there are droves of people working out how to spend more money than is needed.

There is zero reason to own a depreciating asset when it can be leased, everyone knows that and I'm sure the government does too.

I think another reason why this plane is being painted is because previously it was repainted once a year anyway to be leased out to Thomas Cook for the summer..... Obviously that isn't happening anymore.

Sorry for going off on a tangent there

Re your comments on the spending plans of government departments - of course - you are spot on.

I spent the early part of this week working with the people who have the task of deciding priorities for prioritisation and allocation of funding in one of the devolved administrations

It was clear both that a) they know times are going to be really really tight - not just the normal annual game playing and b) that whilst they know that - they have little idea if how bad it will get

 

[BobKowalski]

I love how the Govt is getting slowly squeezed by the Withdrawal Agreement and NI protocols. Source Business Insider.

‘Tory MP @Simon4NDorset asks Gove about exit declarations on goods going from NI to GB
"Yes, they won't be required," Gove says
Has the EU agreed to that?
"The UK position is clear"
So a statement of ambition, rather than an agreed arrangement, which is important to note’

Any export leaving EU Customs Area to non EU Area has to have a customs declaration so goods from NI to GB need one. To exempt NI/GB trade would require EU agreement. To be clear, trade within our own sovereign territory is governed by the EU. A stipulation we ratified in a legal treaty.

 

[west didsblue]

I love how the Govt is getting slowly squeezed by the Withdrawal Agreement and NI protocols. Source Business Insider.

‘Tory MP @Simon4NDorset asks Gove about exit declarations on goods going from NI to GB
"Yes, they won't be required," Gove says
Has the EU agreed to that?
"The UK position is clear"
So a statement of ambition, rather than an agreed arrangement, which is important to note’

Any export leaving EU Customs Area to non EU Area has to have a customs declaration so goods from NI to GB need one. To exempt NI/GB trade would require EU agreement. To be clear, trade within our own sovereign territory is governed by the EU. A stipulation we ratified in a legal treaty.

Just need some oomph.

That'll sort it.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I love how the Govt is getting slowly squeezed by the Withdrawal Agreement and NI protocols. Source Business Insider.

‘Tory MP @Simon4NDorset asks Gove about exit declarations on goods going from NI to GB
"Yes, they won't be required," Gove says
Has the EU agreed to that?
"The UK position is clear"
So a statement of ambition, rather than an agreed arrangement, which is important to note’

Any export leaving EU Customs Area to non EU Area has to have a customs declaration so goods from NI to GB need one. To exempt NI/GB trade would require EU agreement. To be clear, trade within our own sovereign territory is governed by the EU. A stipulation we ratified in a legal treaty.

Not sure why you 'love' it. Just proves what a sinister trap EU membership is if it's so difficult to escape without damage.

 

[BobKowalski]

Interesting developments on the Digital Tax which the US are against in any guise whereas the EU and UK are going for it. US Trade Rep will recommend tariffs against countries that impose such a tax. EU and UK have responded. Note that the Chancellor is reprising his role as the only sensible adult in the Cabinet. Implications for any UK/USA trade deal are obvious.

‘FULL letter from European finance ministers including Chancellor Sunak urging the USA back to OECD talks on a digital tax, partly because the pandemic is making Big Tech “more powerful and more profitable” as US Trade Rep recommends retaliatory tariffs’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53099785

 

[BobKowalski]

And with reference to the NI protocols, NI businesses are losing it with Gove and the Govt as they will be obliged to implement full border controls from 1st Jan (note the UK decision to defer control on our borders for six months does not apply to NI) and they have no idea what this entails so cannot prepare for it. For the avoidance of doubt the reason why the Govt doesn’t give details to businesses in NI is that they don’t have any details. In short, they haven’t a clue and are still in denial over what they signed up to in a legally binding international treaty.