Another new Brexit thread

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Telegraph getting all worked up again. Yet this is just stating the bleeding obvious. The E27 Head of State will discuss Brexit amongts themselves at the summit and not with the U.K. or even with the U.K. in the room and they certainly won’t be ‘negotiating’. That’s what they pay the EU for not to mention their own support and technical staff. If we want the EU and E27 to consider proposals then they will have to be submitted prior to the summit so their trade and legal bods can give them the once over. I sometimes wonder if we know how the world actually works.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ohnson-parliament-no-deal-barnier-conference/

Can't read all of that but if your summary is accurate, what do people expect?
If you have a line in the sand and say 'No Deal' Brexit or else, on 31st of October, well it works both ways.
It means that if you genuinely want the something else then you have deadlines too that will need to be kept.
It's not like 31.10.2019 is a sudden surprise and if you had of known far enough in advance you would have done some work on it.
 
This left wing of which you speak is not so left wing at all. You would no doubt have been railing against Atlee, calling him a commie had you been around at the time.

If the current leadership of the Labour Party is so out of step with the electorate then it suggests that the electorate has become very right wing.
However I don't think that's the case and you may be surprised when there's an election.
Of course Brexit casts such a shadow over things, who knows what will happen in a GE mate. As someone said "anyone who tells you they know what's going on, hasn't been paying attention".

But I'd say two things. Momentum are indeed hard left by any modern standards. Whether they are more left than Wilson or whoever from that era, matters not really, but they are hard left in my book.

And second, yes the country has moved very significantly to the right over the past several decades. It's plain to see from the changing demographic and if you don't notice that, then from the election results: When was the last time a true left wing leader won a GE in this country? It was Harold Wilson in 1974. That's 45 years ago mate.

Look at the changes in the UK since then. Back in the 60's and 70's, coal mining, steel making, ship building etc were all big industries. It was a period of mass, cheap and often unskilled labour and the union-led labour party had a relevance and a strong voice. Today those industries are largely gone. And those that remain are like at Toyota where the employees (not "workers') have a collaborative working relationship with the management team. They are highly skilled and highly paid and they don't live in a terraced house and bike to work. What was previously hard core Labour support is now more likely to vote Tory or LibDem.

The times have indeed changed and what Corbyn is pedalling is not what the nation wants any more. It's what Momentum want, because the likes of Fumble have for 45 years been sidelined and Corbyn offers him a ray of hope.

But it's a false hope. Until Labour get rid of Momentum, Corbyn, McDonnel et al, they shall forever be a voice of protest but always in opposition. And there's no sign of Labour ever being able to get rid of these creeps. It's a dire predicament for the party, it really is.
 
The fault-line running (ruining) through these arguments is the salient fact that the country is in fact broken, every single proposal by the tories, as ever, is to the detriment of the non-tories, historically and contemporarily. Every criticism of their policies is met with the full back-catalogue of hate-mail propaganda, murdoch's gutter- scraping lie machine and rothermere's far-right comic. The end is not in sight, this war has been slowly intensifying since 1979, the blair 'If you cant beat them join them" nu-labour strategy was just a temporary armistice , his refusal to bow to murdoch's t's and c's killed it stone dead. Under our medieval political farago of nonsense that is westminster, there can be no solution. Which suits the side that is in control of information, that yearns for the heyday of feudalism. It took 2 wars to effect changes, and both times those changes were rolled back by the ruling elite, brexit is just another example of their utter contempt for the "plebs", or the "enemy" as they like to refer to the public #thatcher. When a brexit says "the country" as in "the country needs to leave to prosper" they dont intend everyone to prosper, that has never ever been a tory ambition, a fact that is self-evident given their history. It boils down to the grim reality that the country cannot be fixed by a fundamentally unfit-for-purpose political system, which the all-powerful elite will use every device to maintain. Including prorogation of parliament, attacking the gfa and the back-stop, employing psychopaths like cummins, spending billions of public money (at their "pals" agencies, naturally) on a sales blitz to present brexit as a "done deal". Who or what can overturn the "system" is beyond what is available at this time. The lack of a genuinely neutral media, the years and years of contrived decline in the regions, the vested interests of a corrupt bunch of billionaires and the gentry makes them effectively bullet-proof, even more so when the straw that is the EU gets blown away. That the EU has been a surrogate labour party for the last 40 years is beyond sad. Unless, that is you're part of the 5% that are guaranteed to prosper, a xenophobic St George flag waving racist, a daily mail reader, a johnson believer (no, they actually exist, it's not a nightmare, it's incredibly, a fact, not a brexit " fact," a proper fact) and especially a thatcher disciple or even all of the above. The shit meets the fan when sadness becomes anger and a thirst for justice...
The French found the answer; losing two wars worked for Germany; the yanks knew what to do (shame they lost the plot and invented their own tory party).
To reiterate, there is no sticking plaster big enough to "fix" this wound inflicted on the UK. Too deep, too wide too old....the sign on the end of the sick-bed, DO NOT RESUSCITATE
 
Can't read all of that but if your summary is accurate, what do people expect?
If you have a line in the sand and say 'No Deal' Brexit or else, on 31st of October, well it works both ways.
It means that if you genuinely want the something else then you have deadlines too that will need to be kept.
It's not like 31.10.2019 is a sudden surprise and if you had of known far enough in advance you would have done some work on it.



Just a reminder ..... No deal means exactly that

No deal on the status of brits living abroad
No deal on healthcare for brits living abroad
No deal on security
No deal on Visas when we want to go on holiday
No deal on medical supplies
No deal on radioactive treatments
No deal on exchange of information about criminals

etc etc


Nothing agreed until everything's agreed....... remember that?
 
Not particularly. Politicians are sales people and sales people lie all the time, it's part of the job spec. Estate agents describing a slum as a good development opportunity etc.

And "rabble rousing bullshitter"? You want to cite that as a criticism? Really???

41B5CE4F00000578-4635348-image-a-8_1498376914667.jpg
It's telling that the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' chanters at Glasto this year would probably not be able to field a pub football team.
How times change.
 
May was shite, Johnson even more shite so let’s give Corbyn a crack and see just how shite he can be. Only fair.

I don’t wish to go off topic but with all the heat of battle I heard the most unlikely of alliances across the political divide.

Did you all know that right wing jailbird Jonathan Aitken is the godfather of Dianne Abbott’s kid.

I know wow.
 
I don’t wish to go off topic but with all the heat of battle I heard the most unlikely of alliances across the political divide.

Did you all know that right wing jailbird Jonathan Aitken is the godfather of Dianne Abbott’s kid.

I know wow.

He was her boss at TV-am and voting pair in the House, so they've known each other a very long time.
 
Of course Brexit casts such a shadow over things, who knows what will happen in a GE mate. As someone said "anyone who tells you they know what's going on, hasn't been paying attention".

But I'd say two things. Momentum are indeed hard left by any modern standards. Whether they are more left than Wilson or whoever from that era, matters not really, but they are hard left in my book.

And second, yes the country has moved very significantly to the right over the past several decades. It's plain to see from the changing demographic and if you don't notice that, then from the election results: When was the last time a true left wing leader won a GE in this country? It was Harold Wilson in 1974. That's 45 years ago mate.

Look at the changes in the UK since then. Back in the 60's and 70's, coal mining, steel making, ship building etc were all big industries. It was a period of mass, cheap and often unskilled labour and the union-led labour party had a relevance and a strong voice. Today those industries are largely gone. And those that remain are like at Toyota where the employees (not "workers') have a collaborative working relationship with the management team. They are highly skilled and highly paid and they don't live in a terraced house and bike to work. What was previously hard core Labour support is now more likely to vote Tory or LibDem.

The times have indeed changed and what Corbyn is pedalling is not what the nation wants any more. It's what Momentum want, because the likes of Fumble have for 45 years been sidelined and Corbyn offers him a ray of hope.

But it's a false hope. Until Labour get rid of Momentum, Corbyn, McDonnel et al, they shall forever be a voice of protest but always in opposition. And there's no sign of Labour ever being able to get rid of these creeps. It's a dire predicament for the party, it really is.
You point out the differences between then and now well.
That said although there were lots of unskilled, semi skilled etc in poorly paid manual jobs back then, there are still lots of poorly paid people now, they are just not in industry and for the most part have no union representation.
The Labour audience is there it's just not quite so captive as it once was.
 
I don’t wish to go off topic but with all the heat of battle I heard the most unlikely of alliances across the political divide.

Did you all know that right wing jailbird Jonathan Aitken is the godfather of Dianne Abbott’s kid.

I know wow.

I’ll give you Tony Benn and the Rev Ian Paisley. Close friends apparently.

Abbott went to Harrow (girls) and Portillo to Harrow (boys) and Cambridge along with a fair few Tories so not surprising there are long standing friendships. Didn’t know about Aitken though.
 
Why ?

They voted Brexit, it's already a disaster irrespective of what happens next.

By the way:

'But Steve Baker, the deputy chair of the ERG, called on the prime minister to step down immediately after he and 33 fellow Tories voted against the deal alongside the government’s partners in the Democratic Unionist party (DUP).'

And the others only voted for it on the 3rd time, as they are a bunch of lying, double dealing cunts.

So essentially you already have a preconception that Brexit is a catastrophe and so you want to stitch up the public to make sure that they cannot decide for themselves?

What if Boris brings a deal back to the table or what if he reignites May's deal?? What are the Lib Dems/Labour etc going to do then?!

I think this is where Boris is moving and essentially he will say if you vote against this deal then you are directly responsible for us not leaving the EU and he will be right.

It is electoral suicide for the likes of Labour unless they can unite the remain side and that is not happening, in fact Labour at conference voted to not even have remain as policy!!

Just let the people decide for themselves with every single option available ffs.
 
I’ll give you Tony Benn and the Rev Ian Paisley. Close friends apparently.

Abbott went to Harrow (girls) and Portillo to Harrow (boys) and Cambridge along with a fair few Tories so not surprising there are long standing friendships. Didn’t know about Aitken though.

It was on the radio strange alliances in this divided world.

Apparently Jess Phillips and jacob Rees mogg are good chums

And

Ken Clarke and Nigel Farage go out to the boozer together every now and then. That is not so surprising.

@Gabriel has explained the Abbott aitken riddle
 
Just a reminder ..... No deal means exactly that

No deal on the status of brits living abroad
No deal on healthcare for brits living abroad
No deal on security
No deal on Visas when we want to go on holiday
No deal on medical supplies
No deal on radioactive treatments
No deal on exchange of information about criminals

etc etc


Nothing agreed until everything's agreed....... remember that?

Is that to the tune of

Someone’s knocking on the door, someone’s ringing the bell.....
 
It's telling that the 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' chanters at Glasto this year would probably not be able to field a pub football team.
How times change.

Was there anything more cringeworthy than those "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" chants? I had the misfortune of having to hear them at a Radiohead gig at Lancs a couple of summers ago and it was instigated by the band. When I go to a gig, I don't go to hear some fucker spouting off about politics because, shock horror, I just want to hear a band play decent music.

I'll add that if I ever hear anyone chanting "There's only one Boris Johnson", they deserve a fucking slap as well!
 
Was there anything more cringeworthy than those "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" chants? I had the misfortune of having to hear them at a Radiohead gig at Lancs a couple of summers ago and it was instigated by the band. When I go to a gig, I don't go to hear some fucker spouting off about politics because, shock horror, I just want to hear a band play decent music.

I'll add that if I ever hear anyone chanting "There's only one Boris Johnson", they deserve a fucking slap as well!

I went to that gig the sound was dreadful.
 
Was there anything more cringeworthy than those "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" chants? I had the misfortune of having to hear them at a Radiohead gig at Lancs a couple of summers ago and it was instigated by the band. When I go to a gig, I don't go to hear some fucker spouting off about politics because, shock horror, I just want to hear a band play decent music.

I'll add that if I ever hear anyone chanting "There's only one Boris Johnson", they deserve a fucking slap as well!

Personally I would recommend shooting in either case but I’m trying to moderate my language.
 
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