Another new Brexit thread

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Sorry mate, I'm not clear who you are apportioning blame to. Not Corbyn, from what you say. Those that supported him within Labour? They must have believed in him surely. The Labour MP's?

Those that supported him within Labour. I think it’s a little churlish to blame Corby for seizing an opportunity to change the world in a way he had aspired to his whole adult life. I think it would be wholly unrealistic to expect him not to take that chance, otherwise what’s the point in actively being in politics? If that viewpoint is a little inconsistent, then I’ll live with that.

Those that enabled him, must have done so thinking it would deliver a positive outcome. This was wholly misconceived and they must take some responsibility for the consequences that flowed from that i.e. a Tory majority, as without them, it would not have happened imo.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Those that supported him within Labour. I think it’s a little churlish to blame Corby for seizing an opportunity to change the world in a way he had aspired to his whole adult life. I think it would be wholly unrealistic to expect him not to take that chance, otherwise what’s the point in actively being in politics? If that viewpoint is a little inconsistent, then I’ll live with that.

Those that enabled him, must have done so thinking it would deliver a positive outcome. This was wholly misconceived and they must take some responsibility for the consequences that flowed from that i.e. a Tory majority, as without them, it would not have happened imo.

I agree with you that a more competent opposition would have done better than Corbyn and his cabal. Who to blame for shifting Labour to the left though? Its not long ago that a centre/left Labour party such as the one Blair ran was considered unelectable. You are correct that a responsible leadership team within Labour should have had the critical faculties to identify that Corbyn was unelectable for all sorts of reasons. I do think they share the blame with many other factors though.

I wonder if we have witnessed a perfect storm of events that have created this. A Tory leadership where lies are now the norm (a factcheck found Tory claims which were untrue outnumbered Labour 80:1 during the election campaign). A dishonest though admittedly charismatic leader in Johnson. A media increasingly emboldened and little more than a propaganda wing of the Tory party. Austerity, Trump, A disillusioned electorate that have been mistakenly convinced that the EU is the problem. Interference from foreign Governments (both east and west). Maybe given all that, the outcome was almost inevitable even if we had had Obama running as Labour leader.

 

[Len Rum]

Hindsight is indeed 20/20
And it clearly shows how self-serving Corbyn was
Any hard Brexit outcome will be largely on him

Obviously you're being a WUM in that post.
However I think now is the time for you to state unequivocally that the final Brexit deal and the consequences thereof are now entirely the responsibility of the British Government.
A post to that effect from your good self would be appreciated.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I agree with you that a more competent opposition would have done better than Corbyn and his cabal. Who to blame for shifting Labour to the left though? Its not long ago that a centre/left Labour party such as the one Blair ran was considered unelectable. You are correct that a responsible leadership team within Labour should have had the critical faculties to identify that Corbyn was unelectable for all sorts of reasons. I do think they share the blame with many other factors though.

I wonder if we have witnessed a perfect storm of events that have created this. A Tory leadership where lies are now the norm (a factcheck found Tory claims which were untrue outnumbered Labour 80:1 during the election campaign). A dishonest though admittedly charismatic leader in Johnson. A media increasingly emboldened and little more than a propaganda wing of the Tory party. Austerity, Trump, A disillusioned electorate that have been mistakenly convinced that the EU is the problem. Interference from foreign Governments (both east and west). Maybe given all that, the outcome was almost inevitable even if we had had Obama running as Labour leader.

Quite right, and we'll remembered - it was only ten years ago that we were all whinging that there was no difference between the three main parties ans labour had moved almost right of centre.

 

[west didsblue]

Hard means leaving and soft means remain.

It's pure bollocks they have clung to for the last 3 years.

Leaving always meant leaving the SM and CU it is that simple.

Looks like NI are remaining then.

 

[mcfc1632]

A bit of a reach to blame a possible hard brexit on corbyn! I heard similar logic after he stood almost alone on not bombing Syria - some said he caused us to bomb Syria by taking that stance and therefore polarising opinion!
Corbyn has his faults, but a hard brexit (if it happens) is probably the fault of the hard brexiteers plus those that thought they were being clever by pretending they wanted a 'deal'.

Totally disagree on this

If Corbyn had the character to act in what Remainers see as the UK's best interests and let an 'acceptable' leader take over the reins, then a VONC would have been successful, a 2nd referendum would have been called and Brexit may have been cancelled - so the threat of no-deal could never arise

He placed his narrow self-interests ahead of that potential outcome

I find it a delicious perversity that should there end up being a genuine exit from the EU then Leavers will have to look back and acknowledge the roles of three key people:

Gina Miller - for stopping May being able to push through an executive driven BRINO

Theresa May - (and by extension her advisors) - for being so utterly incompetent that she fucked up an unassailable position in 2017 and lost the opportunity to push through her 'worse than Remaining WA'

Jeremy Corbyn - for being such a selfish fucker that he could not bring himself to stand aside and let a government of National Unity take over and bin Brexit

Jeremy Corbyn (so good he needs saying twice) - for being seen as such a threat to the health of the UK that he was a key factor in seeing a government come into power that can now effect a genuine Brexit.

When looked at it that way - we Leavers have had to ride our luck;-)

 

[mcfc1632]

And nothing to do with people who think we need to be willing to leave with no deal as a negotiating stance (and presumably are now pretending it was the threat of no deal that made the EU agree to a deal they'd offered before without the threat).

I'm really not sure whether it's the revisionism or the hypocrisy (or just the triumphalism or the carelessness about the damage) but the thread is not exactly demonstrating where the healing begins (but then that's a slogan with no basis in reality).

You do not seem to be making any attempt to the healing process TBF Vic - you seem more like someone picking at the scabs and moaning when the sores bleed.

Also - you seem to be changing the topic from Corbyn's responsibility - I can understand if you found it uncomfortable

And FWIW - yes we saw the power in negotiations that the threat of a no-deal holds with the EU when they withdrew the unfettered backstop - which, despite naivety posted on here, they certainly did no want to.

I imagine that the EU negotiating team are having a far less relaxed Xmas break than they envisaged as they need to prepare for more of the same given the GE outcome.

Annoyingly, they are a team of professionals and will be do the preparation that will mean that they will be able to deal better with the No-Deal threat in 11 months from now - we should have been making such preparations for over 3 years.
​

 

[mcfc1632]

Good grief. You said "If we have voted to leave the EU, then leave we must and if it's economically damaging then we will have to accept that and deal with it" and thus you "moved on". It took you three years to accept it and move on and you now want to make some moral argument out of your latterday conversion. Welcome to Johnsonworld.

When I read that post I was less hearing about @Chippy_boy making a conversion after a good slug of time - what came more to mind was those people that can simply never find the capability to change their stance over time.

I would give more credit to those that can shift their position as a situation develops than those that are so intransigent that they would rather 'die in a ditch'...…...

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Totally disagree on this

If Corbyn had the character to act in what Remainers see as the UK's best interests and let an 'acceptable' leader take over the reins, then a VONC would have been successful, a 2nd referendum would have been called and Brexit may have been cancelled - so the threat of no-deal could never arise

He placed his narrow self-interests ahead of that potential outcome

I find it a delicious perversity that should there end up being a genuine exit from the EU then Leavers will have to look back and acknowledge the roles of three key people:

Gina Miller - for stopping May being able to push through an executive driven BRINO

Theresa May - (and by extension her advisors) - for being so utterly incompetent that she fucked up an unassailable position in 2017 and lost the opportunity to push through her 'worse than Remaining WA'

Jeremy Corbyn - for being such a selfish fucker that he could not bring himself to stand aside and let a government of National Unity take over and bin Brexit

Jeremy Corbyn (so good he needs saying twice) - for being seen as such a threat to the health of the UK that he was a key factor in seeing a government come into power that can now effect a genuine Brexit.

When looked at it that way - we Leavers have had to ride our luck;-)

Having never been in power I don't think corbyn gets to take any credit or blame for Brexit. That's like blaming Iain Duncan Smith for the Iraq war, or Michael Foot for sinking the Belgrano.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yes, amazing how for some corbyn is more to blame than Cameron, may and Boris. Orwell called this doublethink.

I think that I may have used the word 'blame' with regards Corbyn - when what I mean is 'responsible'

As I have posted a couple of times - without Corbyn's choices then a no-deal outcome would have been taken off the table long past.

But it is less 'blame' at the personal level and more just assessing the consequences of the responsibilities and actions of individuals

Perversely - without Gina Miller's actions then a BRINO Brexit would have been confirmed in 2017 - but I do not 'blame' her at a 'personal' level.

Whereas I do believe that Corbyn has more direct responsibility as he could have more readily seen the outcomes of his choices, e.g. he would have known that if he stood aside a few months ago a VONC and a government of NU would certainly have been formed and perhaps Brexit binned - he placed his personal aspirations ahead of that path.​

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Quite right, and we'll remembered - it was only ten years ago that we were all whinging that there was no difference between the three main parties ans labour had moved almost right of centre.

I wasn’t.

 

[mcfc1632]

I agree that how Brexit finally pans out after the transition period ends and how the UK economy performs over the next five years are entirely the responsibility of the government. With a huge majority, Johnson can choose entirely what courses of actions he wants and we will see how things turn out.

You can, however, blame or thank Corbyn for his contribution to how we have reached this point.

I agree with your first para - that is all about implementation and, from this point, the success/failure is 100% down to Johnson.

I am fully in agreement with the bit I have bolded and feel that we Leavers should give him due acknowledgement - because without him at the helm of Labour these last years then it is almost impossible to see any other outcome than a BRINO / heavily compromised Brexit.

I personally do give due acknowledgement and a great deal of thanks.

I guess it is for Remainers to apportion 'blame' - I am merely pointing out that they have to give that consideration from their POV

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I think that I may have used the word 'blame' with regards Corbyn - when what I mean is 'responsible'

As I have posted a couple of times - without Corbyn's choices then a no-deal outcome would have been taken off the table long past.

But it is less 'blame at the personal level and more just assessing the consequences of the responsibilities and actions of individuals

Perversely - without Gina Miller's actions then a BRINO Brexit would have been confirmed in 2017 - but I do not 'blame' her at a 'personal' level.

Whereas I do believe that Corbyn has more direct responsibility as he could have more readily seen the outcomes of his choices, e.g. he would have known that if he stood aside a few months ago a VONC and a government of NU would certainly have been formed and perhaps Brexit binned - he placed his personal aspirations ahead of that path.​

That my friend, is because JC is a Leaver. Always has been, as were the labour party when we first joined the EEC.

 

[mcfc1632]

Because it wasn’t clear to them. This is because people on the hard left usually suffer from a complete absence of political empathy that borders on the sociopathic; assuming their views are the only ones with any legitimacy and conspicuously failing to appreciate how anyone can hold different views. This is manifestly arrogant. This is also a form of mental disorder that has twice translated into electing leaders (Foot, Corbyn) who enable right-wing governments. This mental disorder is accentuated by the echo-chamber that they inhabit, interacting as they frequently do, pretty much exclusively with others who share their Weltanschauung.

So I’ll happily rephrase my statement:

“It was clearly never going to happen to anyone not suffering from a mental disorder”

Eloquence personified

 

[mcfc1632]

Hard means leaving and soft means remain.

It's pure bollocks they have clung to for the last 3 years.

Leaving always meant leaving the SM and CU it is that simple.

Exactly as Cameron and so many others made crystal clear at the time

 

[west didsblue]

Funny watching the unfettered Brexit bullshitter tying himself in knots.
On the one hand thanking Corbyn for Brexit whilst blaming him for a potential hard Brexit (which has now been clarified as meaning a proper Brexit) and also acknowledging that there’s a good chance a second ref would have stopped it and blaming / thanking him for not making that happen as well. In summary, on the off chance Brexit is a roaring success, it’s thanks to Johnson but if it’s a fuck up it’s down to Corbyn for not stopping it.

In reality the consequences of Brexit are fully owned by the Tories and those that voted them in.

 

[west didsblue]

Eloquence personified

Sycophancy personified.

 

[Chippy_boy]

When I read that post I was less hearing about @Chippy_boy making a conversion after a good slug of time - what came more to mind was those people that can simply never find the capability to change their stance over time.

I would give more credit to those that can shift their position as a situation develops than those that are so intransigent that they would rather 'die in a ditch'...…...

To be fair mate, on my part it was more a weary and rather reluctant submission rather than a some kind of revelatory inspiration!

That said, what I have also found from the last three years is just how tribal things become and how much having taking a position, how entrenched people become. (Very much true of myself: I started out being very ambivalent about Brexit, but having jumped on that bandwaggon, got completely carried away with it.)

Having now changed horses, I am becoming less and less concerned about Brexit, and in fact am more positive about our future prospects now than I have been for years.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Totally disagree on this

If Corbyn had the character to act in what Remainers see as the UK's best interests and let an 'acceptable' leader take over the reins, then a VONC would have been successful, a 2nd referendum would have been called and Brexit may have been cancelled - so the threat of no-deal could never arise

He placed his narrow self-interests ahead of that potential outcome

I find it a delicious perversity that should there end up being a genuine exit from the EU then Leavers will have to look back and acknowledge the roles of three key people:

Gina Miller - for stopping May being able to push through an executive driven BRINO

Theresa May - (and by extension her advisors) - for being so utterly incompetent that she fucked up an unassailable position in 2017 and lost the opportunity to push through her 'worse than Remaining WA'

Jeremy Corbyn - for being such a selfish fucker that he could not bring himself to stand aside and let a government of National Unity take over and bin Brexit

Jeremy Corbyn (so good he needs saying twice) - for being seen as such a threat to the health of the UK that he was a key factor in seeing a government come into power that can now effect a genuine Brexit.

When looked at it that way - we Leavers have had to ride our luck;-)

Objectively, that analysis is 100% correct.

 

[hgblue]

Funny watching the unfettered Brexit bullshitter tying himself in knots.
On the one hand thanking Corbyn for Brexit whilst blaming him for a potential hard Brexit (which has now been clarified as meaning a proper Brexit) and also acknowledging that there’s a good chance a second ref would have stopped it and blaming / thanking him for not making that happen as well. In summary, on the off chance Brexit is a roaring success, it’s thanks to Johnson but if it’s a fuck up it’s down to Corbyn for not stopping it.

In reality the consequences of Brexit are fully owned by the Tories and those that voted them in.

All you are now left with is a potential 'I told you so' moment if the predictions of doom and gloom come to pass, the sourest of sour grapes. Unfortunately for you, now that the sycophantic sideshow in Parliament has been removed, a mutually beneficial FTA will be agreed and the economy will plough on.