Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

You reached that assumption based on what exactly?

You're just filled with bile aren't you, and it's so amusing to see. "Trump!" "Tories!" "Racists!" Why oh why does nobody take you seriously, I wonder?

You don't care one jot about these people or the idea that many people in Eastern Europe are proud of where they live, want to see their nations progress rather than be forced to accept handouts from others, whilst bleeding their workforce and talented individuals to these other nations of Europe. To you they're just a statistic to be used in a remain argument.

This may come as a shock to you, but there are patriotic Poles, patriotic Romanians, patriotic Czechs, Hungarians etc, who want to see their nations grow, and consider the "growth of Europe" as secondary or don't even consider that notion at all.

Fucking well said MB

Unfortunately, seeing the nonsense you were responding to - it is likely way over his head

 

[Ancient Citizen]

He’s used to negotiating with people who fear no deal. Now we have a Tory party which has been purged of the likes of Soubry and Clarke, and has an 80 seat majority. The cabinet and pm are pro Brexit and are ok with a no deal outcome, and can deliver it politically. Remainers are now irrelevant and can’t be relied upon to undermine the UK side in the negotiation. This means that the dynamics have changed and Barnier is struggling to come to terms with this. Fun to watch.

True, so will he scrap the demands for free access to fishing and demanding a LPF?

It's like waiting for the CAS verdict this, I'm all a tremble ;)

 

[Ancient Citizen]

If he wants an extension why doesn’t he just request one? I’m sure we’d consider it and get back to him ;)

I'm sure we would, in fact if he does ask for one, we'll give him 2 years, as long as they
start paying us.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I think his concern about no movement in the talks is borne of us backtracking on the declaration, rather than the EU about to buckle to our demands. Goes without saying but the EU don't want no deal as it hurts them, but it hurts us more.

No mate, as soon as the election results came in, he, they, and all of Brussels knew that
they no longer had supine knee droppers in charge. If he didn't realise this, we're dealing with a
10 year old.

 

[Saddleworth2]

True, so will he scrap the demands for free access to fishing and demanding a LPF?

It's like waiting for the CAS verdict this, I'm all a tremble ;)

Both sides are simply executing their respective mandates which currently are irreconcilable. It needs the politicians on both sides to move red lines so a sensible compromise can be reached. If they cannot crack fishing, governance and LPF then they are not really serious about a deal. I think the EU are, its our lot that I worry about. We should give something on fishing, the Europeans have been fishing our waters and we theirs for centuries before the EU. They should give ground on some of the LPF and Governance starting with state support. A breakthrough is needed in June so that more progress can be made on the none trade stuff. Security, Nuclear, Education. It is not in the UK interest to have a no deal Brexit on top of the ravages of the pandemic and anyone that thinks its a great idea does not have the UK's best interests at heart. Time for the grown ups to move this forward if we have any left.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

What would make anyone think we can’t trade with other countries right now and for the duration of our EU membership?

It was us who made the Political Declaration. We are of course entitled to backtrack from it but it makes us look like mugs. Untrustworthy mugs at that. It’s not going to help us to negotiate in good faith. We’re already trying to squirm out of what we signed up for in the WA with regards to the NI border.

It’s incredible that people think that this is the best way to negotiate. Set up our stall then totally ignore it. Hardly Henry Kissinger stuff.

If it’s indicative of the general level of awareness amongst Brexit supporters of how we should interact with the rest of the world it’s no surprise that the outlook is shit.

The political declaration only got through because it was balanced in the EU's favour enough to keep the 27 happy, and non-binding enough to keep the ERG happy. None of this is a surprise.

 

[hgblue]

Both sides are simply executing their respective mandates which currently are irreconcilable. It needs the politicians on both sides to move red lines so a sensible compromise can be reached. If they cannot crack fishing, governance and LPF then they are not really serious about a deal. I think the EU are, its our lot that I worry about. We should give something on fishing, the Europeans have been fishing our waters and we theirs for centuries before the EU. They should give ground on some of the LPF and Governance starting with state support. A breakthrough is needed in June so that more progress can be made on the none trade stuff. Security, Nuclear, Education. It is not in the UK interest to have a no deal Brexit on top of the ravages of the pandemic and anyone that thinks its a great idea does not have the UK's best interests at heart. Time for the grown ups to move this forward if we have any left.

I think you need to grasp the fact that the UK side don’t see no deal as being a bad outcome. You might disagree but your opinion is neither here nor there. Once you grasp that concept you stand a better chance of understanding the UK stance in the negotiation and why Barnier is becoming increasingly desperate.

 

[blueinsa]

No mate, as soon as the election results came in, he, they, and all of Brussels knew that
they no longer had supine knee droppers in charge. If he didn't realise this, we're dealing with a
10 year old.

I prefer the term forelock tuggers.

I read that a lot on this forum.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think you need to grasp the fact that the UK side don’t see no deal as being a bad outcome. You might disagree but your opinion is neither here nor there. Once you grasp that concept you stand a better chance of understanding the UK stance in the negotiation and why Barnier is becoming increasingly desperate.

Oh my. Grasp the concept?
I understand the UK stance, I understand that Johnson and his sycophants most likely favour a 'no deal' I also understand many of their supporters would welcome it. That does not mean it is in the UK best interests.
What is it that gives such confidence that a no deal would be good for the UK. I would like to understand your rationale a little more.

 

[hgblue]

Oh my. Grasp the concept?
I understand the UK stance, I understand that Johnson and his sycophants most likely favour a 'no deal' I also understand many of their supporters would welcome it. That does not mean it is in the UK best interests.
What is it that gives such confidence that a no deal would be good for the UK. I would like to understand your rationale a little more.

I’m genuinely trying to explain that the UK side can’t be threatened with no deal because some Remainers have been indicating that we have to accept LPF and no change to fishing rights in order for an agreement to be reached. Actually we may prefer being an independent nation state with control of it’s own fishing waters to reaching a deal. I suspect once the EU understand that we may see movement from their side.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I’m genuinely trying to explain that the UK side can’t be threatened with no deal because some Remainers have been indicating that we have to accept LPF and no change to fishing rights in order for an agreement to be reached. Actually we may prefer being an independent nation state with control of it’s own fishing waters to reaching a deal. I suspect once the EU understand that we may see movement from their side.

And I was genuinely suggesting that there needs to be movement on both sides. The U.K. proposals on LPF are minimal deliberately. Both sides need to grow the fuck up. Where we disagree is around the attractiveness of a no deal. Are you happy to trade our remaining car industry for fishing? It shouldn’t come to that. Compromise is possible and so is a deal that is fair to both. You probably know this but LPF Clauses are included in every trade deal that gets done across the world. The fact that we are refusing to even negotiate the detail of any should tell us something.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

Inconvenient but not mutually exclusive with the fact that more people voted for parties either opposed to Brexit to offering a second referendum.

And I was one of them. I held my nose and voted for labour as , although I accepted it might mean a delay or even a cancelling, of Brexit , I could not tolerate voting conservative.

Despite the labour leadership sneering at me from their million pound pads, despite the labour leadership throwing their lot in with the banks, the CEOs and big business at the deliberate expense of their core voter, I voted for them anyway. Their wasn't a socialist alternative.

Guess which way I would have voted in any 2nd referendum? Their were millions like me chief. Millions.

2nd ref, 3rd ref, 4th ref. It matters not.

On this one binary issue the working class still has a voice as powerful as those who sneer at them. And it's evidently driving the sneering classes crazy.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

It’s been said too many times but let’s have one more go. Saying that all U.K. racists who voted will, in all likelihood have voted Brexit, is really not saying that everyone who voted Brexit is a racist and it’s about time you stopped being outraged by that notion.

Picture the scene, immigration desk, at port of entry to the UK before leaving.

Immigrant: "please tell me why you are making it harder for me, an African doctor, to come and live in your country and serve the NHS than you are for those Europeans over in *that* queue. Those people have told you they have no job to go to, no skills to offer that you don't already have in abundance, and they also do not speak your language. Why are you letting them in without question but making it so hard for me?"

Immigration officer: "that's obvious sir. It's because I'm not a racist"


Millions of Brexit voters voted for equality for all. Millions of remain voters voted for the status quo.

I think I can work out why.

 

[hgblue]

And I was genuinely suggesting that there needs to be movement on both sides. The U.K. proposals on LPF are minimal deliberately. Both sides need to grow the fuck up. Where we disagree is around the attractiveness of a no deal. Are you happy to trade our remaining car industry for fishing? It shouldn’t come to that. Compromise is possible and so is a deal that is fair to both. You probably know this but LPF Clauses are included in every trade deal that gets done across the world. The fact that we are refusing to even negotiate the detail of any should tell us something.

But us Leavers have been constantly lectured that the EU held all the cards and when push came to shove we would have to give in to their demands or be crushed like an ant. I’ve disputed this narrative from the start and was forced to watch on as May and Robbins dutifully bowed down and fulfilled that prediction. Now we have a negotiating team who appear to know what they are doing and we will find out of the EU really do hold all the aces. Let’s just see how this pans out because I suspect they will blink first.

 

[BobKowalski]

Picture the scene, immigration desk, at port of entry to the UK before leaving.

Immigrant: "please tell me why you are making it harder for me, an African doctor, to come and live in your country and serve the NHS than you are for those Europeans over in *that* queue. Those people have told you they have no job to go to, no skills to offer that you don't already have in abundance, and they also do not speak your language. Why are you letting them in without question but making it so hard for me?"

Immigration officer: "that's obvious sir. It's because I'm not a racist"


Millions of Brexit voters voted for equality for all. Millions of remain voters voted for the status quo.

I think I can work out why.

And the stupid continues. Is it stupid day today? Are there cards and cake?

 

[Vic]

No mate, as soon as the election results came in, he, they, and all of Brussels knew that
they no longer had supine knee droppers in charge. If he didn't realise this, we're dealing with a
10 year old.

No longer supine knee stoppers but liars in charge.

How do you negotiate with liars? People who will sign a treaty with their fingers crossed. You can see why they wouldn't trust us on annual negotiations over fishing rights. I bet Norway and Iceland don't either.

Deceived the UK electors too.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

And the stupid continues. Is it stupid day today? Are there cards and cake?

No mate. We used them all up on June 24th 2016.
The day after the referendum. The day after the British people said, loud and proud "we refuse to discriminate against people based on the content of their passport"

Those people who voted to continue this discrimination were disappointed that everyone would now be viewed as equal. They didn't want to treat people from the same starting point. They thought some people were more worthy of a place in our society than others, based on where they came from, not what qualities they had. These people were racist.
Some people who voted alongside them did so because they didn't realise. These people were stupid.

Which one were you? Racist? Or stupid?

You could have been both of course. But you can't be neither.

 

[BobKowalski]

I think you need to grasp the fact that the UK side don’t see no deal as being a bad outcome. You might disagree but your opinion is neither here nor there. Once you grasp that concept you stand a better chance of understanding the UK stance in the negotiation and why Barnier is becoming increasingly desperate.

Actually it’s the English stance. The Scottish, Welsh and NI devolved Govts have formally requested an extension to transition. NI especially has said implementing the new protocols by end of year isn’t possible.

British industry and Unions also favour an extension. In fact you would be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn’t think an extension is sensible, so expect Barnier to court those people over the next few months.

 

[Vic]

I’m genuinely trying to explain that the UK side can’t be threatened with no deal because some Remainers have been indicating that we have to accept LPF and no change to fishing rights in order for an agreement to be reached. Actually we may prefer being an independent nation state with control of it’s own fishing waters to reaching a deal. I suspect once the EU understand that we may see movement from their side.

Remainers have no say in it.

Neither does any voter.

Neither does any MP (unless they get off their knees).

Independent coastal state. Putting fish above finance and the services is stupid. And it seems none of you really knows or cares about the fishing industry anyway.

(As Henning Wehn says, congratulations on achieving Bismarck's foreign policy aim of isolating Britain from interfering in Europe.)

 

[BobKowalski]

No mate. We used them all up on June 24th 2016.
The day after the referendum. The day after the British people said, loud and proud "we refuse to discriminate against people based on the content of their passport"

Those people who voted to continue this discrimination were disappointed that everyone would now be viewed as equal. They didn't want to treat people from the same starting point. They thought some people were more worthy of a place in our society than others, based on where they came from, not what qualities they had. These people were racist.
Some people who voted alongside them did so because they didn't realise. These people were stupid.

Which one were you? Racist? Or stupid?

You could have been both of course. But you can't be neither.

I’m someone who actually understands ‘Freedom of Movement’.

Quite how you type the above pile of uninformed, steaming shite will I guess remain one of life’s enduring mysteries. Enjoy your ignorance.