Another new Brexit thread

[west didsblue]

If it is a disaster, will we as a country look at ourselves and our own decisions or blame someone/something else. Time will tell....

I think we know the answer to that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Sadly everything gets carved up in a binary slanging match so it fits twitter and keeps everyone in two camps throwing rocks at each other. Brexit an obvious example, but everything seems to be very black and white now - it seems you have to hate either Starmer or BJ for instance, and thinking both have their good and bad points is not a fashionable view. With anything nowadays a true centrist view that doesn't take a 'side' is quickly attacked.Sad really.

I would agree if you could tell me what BJ's good points are.

 

[blueinsa]

We know no-one on Bluemoon was swayed by any external influences. Not by 40 years of right wing press lies about the EU, not by liars lying during the campaign, not by being targeted on personal social media accounts, a lot linking the refugee crisis to EU membership.

We know you formed your views from careful personal research into the workings of the EU structures. (I'd have said after looking at the economic benefits of leaving, but no, no-one on Bluemoon is that dumb.)

Just don't pretend that's true of 17.4m people, most of whom hadn't cared about the issue till the lying liars got started.

Keep telling yourself that Vic.

 

[Vic]

That truth can never be countenanced because acknowledgement of it would mean remainers admitting the larger and even simpler truth that they are in a minority whose view failed to gain enough traction despite having the dice loaded very much in its favour and only opposed by clowns like Farage / BJ etc. Imagine how many more would have voted leave if there had been a credible personality behind the campaign. Sadly Tony Benn wasn't around , but had he still been in politics and leading the leave campaign it could have been a landslide. As it is remain moved the goalposts, put the shittest keeper in the nets against the worst penalty taker and still missed.
Cameron thought he could pull a coup and put a divisive issue to bed, just as he had with electoral reform - leaflet through everyone's door telling them the world will end if they don't vote for the status quo and a referendum to put the issue to bed forever. Just like electoral reform where we were scared away from voting for PR in favour of the rigged system we still have. The gamble didn't work.

Well, whatever that is, it's your opinion not the truth. If the last GE had been coupled with a separate referendum on whether to abandon Brexit, Remain would have won. And Johnson would not have got such a big majority either - many of those who thought "Get Brexit Done" meant they'd never hear about Brexit again would have voted Remain (under the slogan "Forget Brexit"). It's an old rehashed theme, but I'll pre-empt the responses - the vast majority of polls since the referendum had a majority that said voting Leave was a mistake, and we all know why Leavers were desperate not to have another democratic vote to test that.

That's my opinion, but I won't call it the truth.

 

[blueinsa]

Well, whatever that is, it's your opinion not the truth. If the last GE had been coupled with a separate referendum on whether to abandon Brexit, Remain would have won. And Johnson would not have got such a big majority either - many of those who thought "Get Brexit Done" meant they'd never hear about Brexit again would have voted Remain (under the slogan "Forget Brexit"). It's an old rehashed theme, but I'll pre-empt the responses - the vast majority of polls since the referendum had a majority that said voting Leave was a mistake, and we all know why Leavers were desperate not to have another democratic vote to test that.

That's my opinion, but I won't call it the truth.

Get Brexit Done says your opinion is a million miles off.

At some point it will dawn on you, your opinion that the UK electorate wants to remain was wrong I suppose.

Another ref you say? Best of 3? At what point does the losing side accept the result this time? Remain don't deserve another ref, you have shown yourselves to be petulant children who tantrum when you don't win.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I would agree if you could tell me what BJ's good points are.

Clarity - when it suits him, clear messaging - again when it suits, an instinct for survival/timing gained from years in the manipulative world of the media, and a considerable intellect despite the cartoon portrayals of him. Strengths rather than 'goo' points' I suppose and there is a much longer list of bad points, but you didn't ask for those and I'm sure you can recite them yourself.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Clarity - when it suits him, clear messaging - again when it suits, an instinct for survival/timing gained from years in the manipulative world of the media, and a considerable intellect despite the cartoon portrayals of him. Strengths rather than 'goo' points' I suppose and there is a much longer list of bad points, but you didn't ask for those and I'm sure you can recite them yourself.

ok thanks. Yes, some of those are strengths although I would dispute clarity. The only time I have seen him being clear is when he is reading a script.
Of course strengths can be applied to evil as well as good.

 

[Ban-jani]

We know no-one on Bluemoon was swayed by any external influences. Not by 40 years of right wing press lies about the EU, not by liars lying during the campaign, not by being targeted on personal social media accounts, a lot linking the refugee crisis to EU membership.

We know you formed your views from careful personal research into the workings of the EU structures. (I'd have said after looking at the economic benefits of leaving, but no, no-one on Bluemoon is that dumb.)

Just don't pretend that's true of 17.4m people, most of whom hadn't cared about the issue till the lying liars got started.

I disagree deeply with Brexit voters, we’re better off as a country within the EU and I hope we rejoin one day but this constant patronising is fucking tedious.

Most people on both sides didn’t have a scooby fucking do about the EU before 2016 and then quickly had to learn and make their minds up. The vote was daft in that regard and leaving should have been via a General Election, via a party putting together a manifesto on it.

But... the vote has happened, both sides accepted the conditions of it choosing to leave or remain at the start, people made their minds up and that has to be respected.

Whether or not you feel you know more than leave voters (you don’t, you’re on a level with them as we all are), democracy has taken place and looking back to 2016 is a waste of time.

Why is it whenever Labour voting remainers lose a vote they always call the electorate uninformed or stupid, do you think that helps you?

Do you think calling working class people in Labour heartlands idiots makes them want to join your side of the debate?

I’m a floating voter, have gone Liberal last few times and voted to remain. I’ve considered a Labour Party under Starmer but voting in the party of Emily Thornberry, who looks down her nose at the working class, voting in a party of you and bob and others on here, voting in a party of Owen Jones, makes me want to run a mile.

You’re your own worst enemies.

 

[Vic]

Get Brexit Done says your opinion is a million miles off.

At some point it will dawn on you, your opinion that the UK electorate wants to remain was wrong I suppose.

Another ref you say? Best of 3? At what point does the losing side accept the result this time? Remain don't deserve another ref, you have shown yourselves to be petulant children who tantrum when you don't win.

Is Brexit Done? Why are you here if you think it's done?

It is my opinion, but there have been umpteen opinion polls that have asked maybe half a million people in total if it was a mistake to Leave, and most have said it was a mistake (from the day after the referendum to two days ago). It dawns on me that you don't want to believe that, and you certainly never wanted to put it to another democratic referendum to find out.

Home

whatukthinks.org

(There are similar polls.)

 

[Vic]

Why is it whenever Labour voting remainers lose a vote they always call the electorate uninformed or stupid, do you think that helps you?

Do you think calling working class people in Labour heartlands idiots makes them want to join your side of the debate?

And you complain about words being put in your mouth.

 

[Ban-jani]

And you complain about words being put in your mouth.

Constantly insinuating they’ve been manipulated and didn’t know what they’re voting for is your go to on here, it’s tiresome even for someone who agrees with your original position.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Well, whatever that is, it's your opinion not the truth. If the last GE had been coupled with a separate referendum on whether to abandon Brexit, Remain would have won. And Johnson would not have got such a big majority either - many of those who thought "Get Brexit Done" meant they'd never hear about Brexit again would have voted Remain (under the slogan "Forget Brexit"). It's an old rehashed theme, but I'll pre-empt the responses - the vast majority of polls since the referendum had a majority that said voting Leave was a mistake, and we all know why Leavers were desperate not to have another democratic vote to test that.

That's my opinion, but I won't call it the truth.

Lol! Talk about if my aunt had bollocks, I don't know if this multiple wish list of
self fabricated scenarios keeps you from driving yourself round the twist with frustration mate, but it's time to forget about them now.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Constantly insinuating they’ve been manipulated and didn’t know what they’re voting for is your go to on here, it’s tiresome even for someone who agrees with your original position.

Not sure how anyone can argue they knew exactly what they were going to get by voting leave as we still have no idea what will happen in the next 6-12 months and where we will end up. It could still be anything from soft deal to no deal and full break up of the UK.

In addition how anyone can argue that what we have seen to date v's what people like Gove were claiming pre the vote are massively different, they promised a simple easy transition in to an all-round better deal. We have had years of political shit as a result of trying to square the circle. And as above the problem is still unsolved. Its costing us £bns and we are not getting anywhere. As a bare minimum you have to accept that brexiteers like Gove and Johnson are corrupt/liars or just unable to grasp the reality of what they are doing. We have a vote leave government and they seem to be both things to me (corrupt/liars and incompetent at the same time).

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Hi all. I run a business. I keep hearing radio adverts telling my to go to a certain website to “take advantage of the new start and opportunities which Brexit offers”. I’ve been, and all I can see are complications, costs, red tape and new limitations. Please could one of you Brexit supporters let me know what these new opportunities are? I seem to be missing something here. Thanks in advance.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Not sure how anyone can argue they knew exactly what they were going to get by voting leave as we still have no idea what will happen in the next 6-12 months and where we will end up. It could still be anything from soft deal to no deal and full break up of the UK.

In addition how anyone can argue that what we have seen to date v's what people like Gove were claiming pre the vote are massively different, they promised a simple easy transition in to an all-round better deal. We have had years of political shit as a result of trying to square the circle. And as above the problem is still unsolved. Its costing us £bns and we are not getting anywhere. As a bare minimum you have to accept that brexiteers like Gove and Johnson are corrupt/liars or just unable to grasp the reality of what they are doing. We have a vote leave government and they seem to be both things to me (corrupt/liars and incompetent at the same time).

If it is / was impossible to have known what we were going to get, then it is also impossible to have been told the truth / lies? The not knowing what is going to happen thing applies to leavers and remainers alike - although both would like you to believe they are / were right.

 

[Ban-jani]

Not sure how anyone can argue they knew exactly what they were going to get by voting leave as we still have no idea what will happen in the next 6-12 months and where we will end up. It could still be anything from soft deal to no deal and full break up of the UK.

In addition how anyone can argue that what we have seen to date v's what people like Gove were claiming pre the vote are massively different, they promised a simple easy transition in to an all-round better deal. We have had years of political shit as a result of trying to square the circle. And as above the problem is still unsolved. Its costing us £bns and we are not getting anywhere. As a bare minimum you have to accept that brexiteers like Gove and Johnson are corrupt/liars or just unable to grasp the reality of what they are doing. We have a vote leave government and they seem to be both things to me (corrupt/liars and incompetent at the same time).

Leaving was the greater unknown in some regards yes but people were asked if they wanted to be a member or not and vote stated no. Not “do you want to leave as EFTA or CU or No Deal”, it was a yes or no question to EU membership and if you held the vote again today, it’d be very similar.

Even in December the Tories hoovered up Labour votes and there was a significant swing to voting for them, as the party that was going to deliver Brexit, so three years later a party is winning a GE by the biggest margin in years, on a Brexit ticket.

Telling people now, who voted for Brexit and still support it they don’t know what they voted for and were manipulated, doesn’t help anyone and is patronising to say the least, as Vic is doing.

Unless the EU collapses and we’re somehow unscathed, which is v unlikely, I will always think Brexit was a mistake but there’s a significant proportion of the remain argument that I dislike over all others in this state of affairs, they’re undemocratic snobs, who detest the working class who dared to disobey them.

Regarding the corruption, I’m not sure they’re any more corrupt than any government we’ve ever had. Power corrupts and every cabinet has been at it, hell even gentle JC was caught offering jobs to the daughters of his close mates and don’t get me started on Blair, who’s the worst of the lot.

Anyway...Leaving the EU should be a reasonable opinion without all of the hyperbole that’s spouted from both sides, it’s not the fault of leavers that prominent leavers are incompetent, you could also level that at prominent remain politicians.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Hi all. I run a business. I keep hearing radio adverts telling my to go to a certain website to “take advantage of the new start and opportunities which Brexit offers”. I’ve been, and all I can see are complications, costs, red tape and new limitations. Please could one of you Brexit supporters let me know what these new opportunities are? I seem to be missing something here. Thanks in advance.

Have you thought of opening a lorry park in kent or a soup kitchen for the mass unemployed post brexit? Maybe sell up everything you own now and buy it all back again at a fraction of the price in the post brexit apocalypse? Mind you, I suppose the run on a crashing pound after brexit will mean that inflation will stop you doing this.

 

[Vic]

...Unless the EU collapses and we’re somehow unscathed, which is v unlikely, I will always think Brexit was a mistake but there’s a significant proportion of the remain argument that I dislike over all others in this state of affairs, they’re undemocratic snobs, who detest the working class who dared to disobey them.
...
Regarding the corruption, I’m not sure they’re any more corrupt than any government we’ve ever had. Power corrupts and every cabinet has been at it, hell even gentle JC was caught offering jobs to the daughters of his close mates and don’t get me started on Blair, who’s the worst of the lot...

I think that's marginally better than being persuaded to vote into power an undemocratic snob who detests the working class who dared to obey him.

Regarding the corruption, you really can't believe that nonsense. That's not whataboutery, that's unadulterated bullshit.

 

[Vic]

If it is / was impossible to have known what we were going to get, then it is also impossible to have been told the truth / lies? The not knowing what is going to happen thing applies to leavers and remainers alike - although both would like you to believe they are / were right.

"What happens when we leave? We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it." How was it possible to tell the truth about a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border that doesn't exist?

 

[Ban-jani]

I think that's marginally better than being persuaded to vote into power an undemocratic snob who detests the working class who dared to obey him.

Regarding the corruption, you really can't believe that nonsense. That's not whataboutery, that's unadulterated bullshit.

Which part of it is bullshit?

Rather than saying it is why don’t you have a go and at saying why for once?