Assisted dying

I’m not sure where I stand on this. Horrible position to be in for anybody. I had a sister who had MND who suffered terribly at the end. Would she have choosen this route? I probably would have if in her shoes. I just can’t comprehend it. I get it, I just struggle with it. And I certainly wouldn’t want to be the one dishing out the medication. Even if it’s not me who administers it per se.
 
Religious folk often regard atheists as delusional, not sure the characterisation is very helpful to understanding either group tbh.
They’d be very wrong to though. A delusion is a belief in something where there’s incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, yet there is no evidence of any kind of any god so not believing in a god literally cannot be a delusion.
 
The proven danger of coercion, including self-coercion, is the primary reason why the state should never sanction assisted suicide.


Im hoping that as a result we will see changes to

  1. Funding of social care
  2. Funding and improvements to Hospice Care (which shouldn't be funded by charitable donations )
Assisted dying should only be as a result of ''no other choice'' rather than an alternative.
 
Much like abortion, it’s not meant to be lauded as a “good” thing, but rather a necessary thing…for those that choose or need it.

Not everything is good or bad, or should be characterized that way.
Very good way of putting it.

I found those celebrating this on the footage on the News just now, very odd: cheering, arms in the air, smiles on their faces and hugging each other like their football team had just won.

This isn’t a ‘good’ thing, but should be an option as a necessary thing for those in a situation where it is better than suffering horribly.
 
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That they are happy for the dying and their families to go through torture so MP's needn't make a tough decision.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, albeit I disagree with you. I listened to the debate and I didn't hear anything that suggested this was the motivation of those speaking/voting against the bill.
 
We don’t artificially feed someone who is dying no. There’s a point at which this becomes futile, the body is dying and feeding it won’t prevent that death.

Artificial fluids and feed when someone is dying comforts the family and not the patient. The body as it goes through the dying phase struggles to process fluids - they end up in the wrong place within the body pooling on such areas as the lungs/chest - this is a huge part of why you will hear what is often referred to as the death rattle.

Cannulation to deliver those fluids is also painful as the veins tend to become very difficult to use - cannulation is invasive and performing an invasive procedure on a dying patient is cruel and undignified.

If someone can eat/drink they are fed, if they can’t and life can be saved they are given IV/NG feeding/hydration.

If they are dying, death is a natural process and they should not have needless shoves in them and we should look to help with sips of fluid if possible or good mouth care.

We need to be better at recognising deterioration and the dying process.

2 weeks ago my friends dad died, he died with 2 cannulas in, he had ben pulled about, rehydrated, fluids stopped when bloods taken no longer showed dehydration but within 24/48 hours given it all again.

I visited him often, it was clear to me from my palliative care background he was dying, I told the nurses he was dying, he had periods of real alertness and they looked at me like I was mad.

But he couldn’t sustain his body - had reached his natural end, his desire to eat/drink gone. Finished his days with maybe 1-2 spoons of food each meal time.

He was miserable stuck in a hospital bed, and in the end died alone with no one except me calling it he was dying.

His daughter sent home only 2 hours earlier with the Dr saying he wasn’t palliative.

I’d repositioned him in bed a few days earlier and let me tell you he was cachexic
I could feel every bone in his back.

So you see, all those fluids made no difference, maybe kept him going a few more days but what his treatment did was prolong his death. Those fluids shoved into a body that by very nature didn’t need or want them made more urination for which he had to be moved around more to deal with, made a wet chest because his body tissues became leaky and didn’t save his life.

To deliver them he had needles shoved into retracted veins with more than one attempt at cannulation needed to do so, thin frail skinned arms that barely had any fat on.

We need to be better at recognising impending death, better at supporting people to die naturally but without pain.

Flip that over to someone in their 40’s with a life limiting illness and 6-12 months to live and it’s absolutely correct we artificially feed/hydrate not doing so would’ve killing them.

But the fact remains that most people ( not all) that argue about the not giving food/fluids have witnessed their elderly relatives die without bags of fluid.

Apparently that’s barbaric and cruel not to shove needles into someone who is naturally dying but it’s ok to shove a needle into someone who still has 6-12 months to live.

To me you can’t have it both ways.

You can have a terminal illness for years but you become actually terminal only a short time before death.
Thanks very much for such a detailed response.
 
I am for it. We should have the choice if we are suffering too much. Not just for ourselves, but those we leave behind. Nobody needs to watch someone you love suffer needlessly.
 
Guardrails are always important, but the vast, vast majority of people would prefer to choose the date and time of their death than live in pain and abject misery.

I can only speak for myself, but the cottage industry that has blown up squeezing every last penny from the infirm, bleeding them dry of their last dime in high priced assisted living facilities with substandard medical care, is far more distasteful to me than someone choosing not to go through it.

My wife and I each have Healthcare POA over the other, and have made sure that we each understand the other’s personal wishes regarding end of life care, stipulating it in our trusts.

You rail against the myth of god but happily pedal this myth of people always die in pain and abject misery?

Herein lay the problem with this debate - it’s littered with the ill informed using their own beliefs or personal experiences extrapolate some universal truism that simply doesn’t exist.

I’ve no problem with people having the right to choose - however if we keep peddling this lie then everyone with a life limiting illness will think they are going to die in pain and abject misery and a lot are going to unnecessarily opt for this and lose precious time on this planet - of which we all only get one go at. Unless the religious folk are right but I’m not getting in to that!!
 
I think religion reflects our species' reluctance to accept death as a better alternative to life.

This is a fabulous quote. We do have an unhealthy relationship with death and accepting our own mortality, it’s often a taboo subject - hopefully bringing this debate to the fore will allow as to bring the topic out of the shadows.
 
They’d be very wrong to though. A delusion is a belief in something where there’s incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, yet there is no evidence of any kind of any god so not believing in a god literally cannot be a delusion.
It really does depend on what you choose to believe is evidence. Those who think modern science alone provides all the tools to understand the universe and our place in it are basically deluded - although perhaps not very helpful to point this out ;-)
 
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