Bayern tw*ts doing it again..

Re: Bayern twats doing it again..

Markt85 said:
Pigeonho said:
The cookie monster said:
I think someone mentioned it on another thread..

Ashley cole taunting all our players with thursday night football going up the tunnel at the bridge..

On that alone i want them tossers beat,and thats without even starting on terry!
Nah mate. English club beating a German club, in the Cl final, on their own turf?! I'll be rooting for Chelsea for sure on Saturday night.

Owned by a russian

Managed by an italian

Relying on a 50 million Spanish player


Come on Bayern !

Owned by an Arabian...

Managed by an Italian...

Relaying on several millions worth of foreign players...

Will you be supporting City if they reach the CL final?
 
I can't bring myself to want the Chavs to win. Not after the stunt their players pulled in the tunnel after their undeserved victory V us at The Bridge.

"Thursday Nights, Channel 5", they sang. And their fans, meanwhile, are always slating us. They are toilet and mostly favour United.

I used to feel neutral but now I cannot stand them and their captain is a Essex Boy, Klansman, ex rag fan thug.
 
Also, they only have one word song/chant and it's a horrible one at that. And to add insult to ear injury, they chant it for minutes at a time. Also, their ground is a chip shop and nobody really supports them.
 
You keep reading how the Bundesligua is the shining beacon of how a football club should be run, however read this interesting and insightful article from Martin Samuel... bit of an eyeopener...

Chelsea play Bayern Munich in the Champions League final on Saturday, so you know what that means: a week-long love-in with the Bundesliga.

Remember when Spain had the greatest teams and all we heard about was the marvellous socios? That was the way to run a league, apparently, clubs in the ownership of the supporters, no nasty foreign types holding board meetings on the subcontinent or sprinkling fairy dust on mediocrities beyond the traditional elite.

Then it turned out the socios were just as selfishly driven as any Russian oligarch, that the two biggest clubs in La Liga, Real Madrid and Barcelona, kept the rest in a swamp of comparative poverty that made the Scottish Premier League appear enlightened, and suddenly Spain did not look so good any more.

Enter Germany’s Bundesliga. High attendances, low ticket prices, free travel on match days, a majority of club shares have to be in the hands of supporters’ groups and you can even stand and have a pint. Best of all, unlike our own game, nobody goes skint because common sense rules.
Bayern blues: Arjen Robben after his side lost 5-2 to Borussia Dortmund in the German Cup final

Bayern blues: Arjen Robben after his side lost 5-2 to Borussia Dortmund in the German Cup final

That is the perception anyway. German football is increasingly depicted as the perfect model; the one to follow. The precarious fiscal state of our Premier League would not exist in Germany, we are told, because strict controls ensure financial prudence. Not exactly. German football is most certainly different; but not necessarily in the way we think.

Technically, there has never been an insolvent club in the Bundesliga, compared to 54 across English professional football since the Premier League was formed in 1992; but the Bundesliga is only 36 clubs, compared to our 92 and counting. Northwich Victoria, Farsley Celtic and Salisbury City are included in English football’s insolvencies, plus seven other teams from the Conference, while six clubs — Leeds United, Luton Town, Bournemouth, Rotherham United, Southampton and Portsmouth — account for 22.5 per cent of the insolvencies, having gone under more than once.

Expand German football similarly and the myth of stability evaporates. We don’t have to time travel to the last century, either. Here is a list of insolvencies or clubs that have been punished for financial irregularities in Germany since 2008, if extended to include competitions comparable to the Football League (Liga 3 and Regionalliga) and Conference (Oberliga plus various regional leagues).

2008: SV Darmstadt 98 (former Bundesliga, now Liga 3, insolvency); 1FC Gladbeck (former second division, now regional league, no licence); SpVgg Erkenschwick (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); Yesilyurt Berlin (Oberliga, insolvent, folded); FSV Bayreuth (regional league, insolvency).

2009: Sachsen Leipzig (former East German champions, then regional league, insolvency); Altona 93 (Regionalliga Nord, no licence); Kickers Emden (then Liga 3, now regional league, no licence); FSV Oggersheim (Regionalliga West, no licence); Viktoria Aschaffenburg (regional league, no licence); TSV Grossbardorf (Regionalliga Sud, no licence).

2010: Tennis Borussia Berlin (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); Hansa Rostock II (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated); Rot-Weiss Essen (former Bundesliga, former champions, European Cup competitors, now Regionalliga West, no licence); Bonner SC (regional league, insolvency); SV Waldhof Mannheim (former Bundesliga, Regionalliga West, no licence); SSV Reutlingen 05 (former Bundesliga, then Oberliga, insolvency); TSV Eintracht Bamberg (Regionalliga Sud, insolvency, folded); VfLGermania Leer (regional league, insolvency); Viktoria Aschaffenburg (insolvency); Preussen Hameln (regional league, no licence, club later folded).

2011: TuS Koblenz (former Bundesliga, then Liga 3, no licence); Sachsen Leipzig (insolvency, folded); RW Ahlen (former Bundesliga, then Liga 3, insolvency); SSV Ulm 1846 (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); SpVgg Weiden (Regionalliga Sud, insolvency); SpVgg Erkenschwick (no license); 1FC Kleve (Regionalliga West, insolvency).

2012: Turkiyemspor Berlin (Oberliga, insolvency); SC Borea Dresden (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated mid-season for financial reasons); VfL Kirchheim (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated midseason for financial reasons); Eintracht Nordhorn (regional league, insolvency; Kickers Emden (insolvency).

Phew. For a system that is so perfectly structured that’s quite a catalogue of financial disaster. And while most of the names will be unfamiliar, the citizens of Bamberg probably haven’t heard of Farsley Celtic or Rotherham United.
Scratch below the surface: Borussia Dortmund achieved a league and cup double, but German football is not as rosy as some would make out

Scratch below the surface: Borussia Dortmund achieved a league and cup double, but German football is not as rosy as some would make out

Not all of these clubs are minnows, either. SV Waldhof Mannheim have a ground capacity equivalent to Stoke City. Nor are the sums involved minuscule. Bonner SC were £5.61m in debt.

Yet for the really big bucks, go right to the top. For while no Bundesliga team have become insolvent, quite a few have had a fair tilt at it, only to be bailed out in a way that English clubs simply are not.

Take Hansa Rostock. Bottom of Bundesliga 2, with debts of £6.81m, they risked being busted down to the amateur ranks until the local council stepped in last week with an aid package, including a partial waiver of tax debt, the purchase of property located in Hansa’s training complex and a significant grant.

Not that they can afford it. The state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, in which Rostock is situated, is the poorest in Germany and below the European Union average in terms of gross domestic product per capita.

Yet Rostock’s escape is a familiar one. Alemannia Aachen, who will be joining them in Liga 3 next season, were also rescued from debt by the city council, having got into trouble upgrading their stadium, under pressure from the Bundesliga’s administrators. Alemannia spent £50m they didn’t have and then had to be saved with two 45-year loans.There may be trouble ahead, however, as one of those agreements was only reached on the proviso Alemannia remained a Bundesliga concern. Still, as of next season, they are not the Bundesliga’s problem, so another potential insolvency will not go down to European football’s perfect financial model.

No bankruptcies then, but there have been some close shaves. Eintracht Frankfurt have twice been docked points for financial misdeeds, as were Kaiserslautern, who were in such a mess they mortgaged their star player, Miroslav Klose, to the state lottery.

TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena to Bayern Munich to stay afloat, while Schalke 04 had debts of £248m two years ago. Meanwhile, SportFive get the first 20 per cent of all monies earned by Hamburg in perpetuity for financing their new stadium, the name of which has changed three times in nine years. And when the politicians or big business won’t help, the league or a rival club obliges. Current champions Borussia Dortmund came so close to going under they were only saved by a £1.6m loan from rivals Bayern Munich — a deal so straightforward and above board that it went unmentioned until recently, close to a decade later.
Done deal: TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena

Done deal: TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena

Last year, Arminia Bielefeld were relegated after £1m to pay player wages was advanced by the Bundesliga in exchange for a three-point deduction that saw them become Liga 3’s problem.

The only reason Germany’s Bundesliga has not had three insolvencies in as many seasons is because the administrators, government or local councils have acted in a way that is foreign to the English game.

The nearest Tube station to the Emirates Stadium is Holloway Road (not, as many believe, Arsenal). Yet Holloway Road is all but closed on match days because Transport for London decided it did not want to upgrade the exit facilities which currently consist of a winding staircase and lifts. Money set aside for an escalator project ended up being spent elsewhere.

Compare this to Germany, where the Munich clubs received £168.7m from city and regional governments to develop the infrastructure around the AllianzArena, including an upgraded railway station and a broadened motorway with new exit.

German clubs can be supporter-owned because the state often picks up the tab left for English club owners. It is this inclusive thinking that allows Bundesliga match tickets to double as train passes — a fine plan, but not so easy to implement when the journey to Old Trafford might pass through several privatised networks.
That sinking feeling: Hertha Berlin's Aenis Ben-Hatira argues with fans following the club's relegation to the Bundesliga 2

That sinking feeling: Hertha Berlin's Aenis Ben-Hatira argues with fans following the club's relegation to the Bundesliga 2

And there is the issue. The problem with the new financial rules that will govern European football is that they work on the principle that one size fits all, when clearly it does not. The German model differs from the Spanish model which differs from the English model, if there is a model at all. Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the Premier League, does not believe a single defined structure exists — and looking at the ownership of, say, Wigan Athletic and Blackburn Rovers, he may be right.

Certainly, in Germany, the state appears to have greater appreciation of football’s worth to the community. Hertha Berlin did not provide any of the £194.5m required to redevelop the Olympiastadion; 1FC Koln’s stadium reconstruction was financed by the city of Cologne; the city of Frankfurt paid for the £120.5m refit for Eintracht Frankfurt; Stuttgart’s stadium is owned by a council-controlled subsidiary and central government went half in with Lokomotiv Leipzig.

German football has its own way of surviving the recession and parts of their model are truly admirable, but to argue that the Bundesliga blueprint is for all to follow, is an over-simplification. English clubs get it wrong; but so do German ones. The difference is the state-sponsored safety net.

Read more: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2143867/German-football-efficiency-The-Bundesliga-Martin-Samuel.html#ixzz1vAbON7Zf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/articl ... z1vAbON7Zf</a>
 
Re: Bayern twats doing it again..

Aguero said:
5-2 5-2 BAYERN GOT HAMMERED 5-2

Shit team, hope we get them in the knockout round next year, put them in their place.

Come on let's be reasonable they're clearly not shit , Champions League final, we went out in the group stages..
 
Re: Bayern twats doing it again..

blueinsa said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
Hoeness should be honest and call Abramovich a "filthy Jew" as that's what he's clearly alluding to.

Nail on the head.

Something still very sinister amongst certain Germans mentalities imo.

The ruling elite are the same nazi bastards that they were in 1939. look at the balkans war, started by the nazi loving german backed croatians. Death of a nation, great book about utter bullshit a lies spread by nato and western media about the serbs.
 
I don't understand why they have to be so classless and rub people's nose in it

They have been guaranteed their win since the semi final draw, they should just leave it at that
 
dario2739 said:
You keep reading how the Bundesligua is the shining beacon of how a football club should be run, however read this interesting and insightful article from Martin Samuel... bit of an eyeopener...

Chelsea play Bayern Munich in the Champions League final on Saturday, so you know what that means: a week-long love-in with the Bundesliga.

Remember when Spain had the greatest teams and all we heard about was the marvellous socios? That was the way to run a league, apparently, clubs in the ownership of the supporters, no nasty foreign types holding board meetings on the subcontinent or sprinkling fairy dust on mediocrities beyond the traditional elite.

Then it turned out the socios were just as selfishly driven as any Russian oligarch, that the two biggest clubs in La Liga, Real Madrid and Barcelona, kept the rest in a swamp of comparative poverty that made the Scottish Premier League appear enlightened, and suddenly Spain did not look so good any more.

Enter Germany’s Bundesliga. High attendances, low ticket prices, free travel on match days, a majority of club shares have to be in the hands of supporters’ groups and you can even stand and have a pint. Best of all, unlike our own game, nobody goes skint because common sense rules.
Bayern blues: Arjen Robben after his side lost 5-2 to Borussia Dortmund in the German Cup final

Bayern blues: Arjen Robben after his side lost 5-2 to Borussia Dortmund in the German Cup final

That is the perception anyway. German football is increasingly depicted as the perfect model; the one to follow. The precarious fiscal state of our Premier League would not exist in Germany, we are told, because strict controls ensure financial prudence. Not exactly. German football is most certainly different; but not necessarily in the way we think.

Technically, there has never been an insolvent club in the Bundesliga, compared to 54 across English professional football since the Premier League was formed in 1992; but the Bundesliga is only 36 clubs, compared to our 92 and counting. Northwich Victoria, Farsley Celtic and Salisbury City are included in English football’s insolvencies, plus seven other teams from the Conference, while six clubs — Leeds United, Luton Town, Bournemouth, Rotherham United, Southampton and Portsmouth — account for 22.5 per cent of the insolvencies, having gone under more than once.

Expand German football similarly and the myth of stability evaporates. We don’t have to time travel to the last century, either. Here is a list of insolvencies or clubs that have been punished for financial irregularities in Germany since 2008, if extended to include competitions comparable to the Football League (Liga 3 and Regionalliga) and Conference (Oberliga plus various regional leagues).

2008: SV Darmstadt 98 (former Bundesliga, now Liga 3, insolvency); 1FC Gladbeck (former second division, now regional league, no licence); SpVgg Erkenschwick (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); Yesilyurt Berlin (Oberliga, insolvent, folded); FSV Bayreuth (regional league, insolvency).

2009: Sachsen Leipzig (former East German champions, then regional league, insolvency); Altona 93 (Regionalliga Nord, no licence); Kickers Emden (then Liga 3, now regional league, no licence); FSV Oggersheim (Regionalliga West, no licence); Viktoria Aschaffenburg (regional league, no licence); TSV Grossbardorf (Regionalliga Sud, no licence).

2010: Tennis Borussia Berlin (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); Hansa Rostock II (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated); Rot-Weiss Essen (former Bundesliga, former champions, European Cup competitors, now Regionalliga West, no licence); Bonner SC (regional league, insolvency); SV Waldhof Mannheim (former Bundesliga, Regionalliga West, no licence); SSV Reutlingen 05 (former Bundesliga, then Oberliga, insolvency); TSV Eintracht Bamberg (Regionalliga Sud, insolvency, folded); VfLGermania Leer (regional league, insolvency); Viktoria Aschaffenburg (insolvency); Preussen Hameln (regional league, no licence, club later folded).

2011: TuS Koblenz (former Bundesliga, then Liga 3, no licence); Sachsen Leipzig (insolvency, folded); RW Ahlen (former Bundesliga, then Liga 3, insolvency); SSV Ulm 1846 (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); SpVgg Weiden (Regionalliga Sud, insolvency); SpVgg Erkenschwick (no license); 1FC Kleve (Regionalliga West, insolvency).

2012: Turkiyemspor Berlin (Oberliga, insolvency); SC Borea Dresden (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated mid-season for financial reasons); VfL Kirchheim (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated midseason for financial reasons); Eintracht Nordhorn (regional league, insolvency; Kickers Emden (insolvency).

Phew. For a system that is so perfectly structured that’s quite a catalogue of financial disaster. And while most of the names will be unfamiliar, the citizens of Bamberg probably haven’t heard of Farsley Celtic or Rotherham United.
Scratch below the surface: Borussia Dortmund achieved a league and cup double, but German football is not as rosy as some would make out

Scratch below the surface: Borussia Dortmund achieved a league and cup double, but German football is not as rosy as some would make out

Not all of these clubs are minnows, either. SV Waldhof Mannheim have a ground capacity equivalent to Stoke City. Nor are the sums involved minuscule. Bonner SC were £5.61m in debt.

Yet for the really big bucks, go right to the top. For while no Bundesliga team have become insolvent, quite a few have had a fair tilt at it, only to be bailed out in a way that English clubs simply are not.

Take Hansa Rostock. Bottom of Bundesliga 2, with debts of £6.81m, they risked being busted down to the amateur ranks until the local council stepped in last week with an aid package, including a partial waiver of tax debt, the purchase of property located in Hansa’s training complex and a significant grant.

Not that they can afford it. The state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, in which Rostock is situated, is the poorest in Germany and below the European Union average in terms of gross domestic product per capita.

Yet Rostock’s escape is a familiar one. Alemannia Aachen, who will be joining them in Liga 3 next season, were also rescued from debt by the city council, having got into trouble upgrading their stadium, under pressure from the Bundesliga’s administrators. Alemannia spent £50m they didn’t have and then had to be saved with two 45-year loans.There may be trouble ahead, however, as one of those agreements was only reached on the proviso Alemannia remained a Bundesliga concern. Still, as of next season, they are not the Bundesliga’s problem, so another potential insolvency will not go down to European football’s perfect financial model.

No bankruptcies then, but there have been some close shaves. Eintracht Frankfurt have twice been docked points for financial misdeeds, as were Kaiserslautern, who were in such a mess they mortgaged their star player, Miroslav Klose, to the state lottery.

TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena to Bayern Munich to stay afloat, while Schalke 04 had debts of £248m two years ago. Meanwhile, SportFive get the first 20 per cent of all monies earned by Hamburg in perpetuity for financing their new stadium, the name of which has changed three times in nine years. And when the politicians or big business won’t help, the league or a rival club obliges. Current champions Borussia Dortmund came so close to going under they were only saved by a £1.6m loan from rivals Bayern Munich — a deal so straightforward and above board that it went unmentioned until recently, close to a decade later.
Done deal: TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena

Done deal: TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena

Last year, Arminia Bielefeld were relegated after £1m to pay player wages was advanced by the Bundesliga in exchange for a three-point deduction that saw them become Liga 3’s problem.

The only reason Germany’s Bundesliga has not had three insolvencies in as many seasons is because the administrators, government or local councils have acted in a way that is foreign to the English game.

The nearest Tube station to the Emirates Stadium is Holloway Road (not, as many believe, Arsenal). Yet Holloway Road is all but closed on match days because Transport for London decided it did not want to upgrade the exit facilities which currently consist of a winding staircase and lifts. Money set aside for an escalator project ended up being spent elsewhere.

Compare this to Germany, where the Munich clubs received £168.7m from city and regional governments to develop the infrastructure around the AllianzArena, including an upgraded railway station and a broadened motorway with new exit.

German clubs can be supporter-owned because the state often picks up the tab left for English club owners. It is this inclusive thinking that allows Bundesliga match tickets to double as train passes — a fine plan, but not so easy to implement when the journey to Old Trafford might pass through several privatised networks.
That sinking feeling: Hertha Berlin's Aenis Ben-Hatira argues with fans following the club's relegation to the Bundesliga 2

That sinking feeling: Hertha Berlin's Aenis Ben-Hatira argues with fans following the club's relegation to the Bundesliga 2

And there is the issue. The problem with the new financial rules that will govern European football is that they work on the principle that one size fits all, when clearly it does not. The German model differs from the Spanish model which differs from the English model, if there is a model at all. Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the Premier League, does not believe a single defined structure exists — and looking at the ownership of, say, Wigan Athletic and Blackburn Rovers, he may be right.

Certainly, in Germany, the state appears to have greater appreciation of football’s worth to the community. Hertha Berlin did not provide any of the £194.5m required to redevelop the Olympiastadion; 1FC Koln’s stadium reconstruction was financed by the city of Cologne; the city of Frankfurt paid for the £120.5m refit for Eintracht Frankfurt; Stuttgart’s stadium is owned by a council-controlled subsidiary and central government went half in with Lokomotiv Leipzig.

German football has its own way of surviving the recession and parts of their model are truly admirable, but to argue that the Bundesliga blueprint is for all to follow, is an over-simplification. English clubs get it wrong; but so do German ones. The difference is the state-sponsored safety net.

Read more: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2143867/German-football-efficiency-The-Bundesliga-Martin-Samuel.html#ixzz1vAbON7Zf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/articl ... z1vAbON7Zf</a>

This backs up everything I've been saying about the "wonderfull bundesliga", its typical german bollocks.
 
Re: Bayern twats doing it again..

Prestwich_Blue said:
Ruhr said:
i´m not a friend of bayern, really, but the club has a vital jewish history, so that is really not the topic

Interesting. I hadn't realised that.
In pre-Nazi Germany Bayern was a club of Jewish visionaries. It was sponsored by Jewish businesses and became a beacon of tolerance and cosmopolitanism. The Nazis suppressed it, and a mixture of post-war guilt and simple ignorance kept the story hidden.

Now it has been brought to light by Dietrich Schulze-Marmeling, one of Germany's leading football historians, and is slowly being re-embraced by the club.

The key figure in the story is Kurt Landauer, a stout Bavarian from a wealthy Jewish family who was club president from 1919 onwards and made little Bayern into one of Germany's most dynamic football institutions. Landauer shared the vision of his friend and mentor Walther Bensemann, an even more important Jewish German football pioneer, that the game could create friendships between nations. Landauer rejected the notion of Kampfgeist ("spirit of struggle"). Rather, he saw football as a game of creativity, artistry and joy.

Bayern's 1-7 defeat at the hands of the Budapest club MTK in 1919 changed his life. MTK was another "Jewish club", and played stylish, intelligent, quick-passing football. Landauer was so impressed by the Hungarians that he spent the next decade recruiting as many of them as possible to Bayern, and all of them happened to be Jewish.

Rarely has so much coaching talent passed through the doors of one club - talent like Izidor "Dori" Kürschner who would later flee to Rio and help lay the foundations of Brazil's beautiful game, and Kálmán Konrád, who coached Bayern for a season and, in 1999, was picked by World Soccer magazine as one of the 100 greatest players of all time.

By the early 1930s, Richard Dombi, a Viennese Jew, was one of the most coveted managers in Europe. He led Bayern to its first championship in 1932.

In short, Landauer had turned Bayern into a bastion of enlightened values and good football. The club had the best youth training system in Germany and was pushing for professionalism. And it was all doomed. As Schulze-Marmeling says: "Bayern Munich was like a little island in a sea of antisemitism".

In the years after the Nazi takeover of Germany in 1933, football was "Aryanised". Yet Bayern continued to hold out, after a fashion. The club's Jewish members, players and administrators were forced to leave. Many were later murdered. Albert Otto Beer and Berthold Koppel, two Jewish textile merchants and club members, were deported and killed. Another, Siegfried Weisenbeck, committed suicide. During the Nazi period, local rival club 1860 Munich collaborated with the new authorities, but Bayern selected non-Nazi presidents while Landauer secretly ran things behind the scenes. This ended when he was arrested on Kristallnacht in 1938 and briefly held in Dachau.

Landauer's three brothers and a sister were murdered in the Holocaust but he escaped to Switzerland and returned as club president in 1947, dying in 1961.

"We have to be very careful about calling Bayern a Jewish club," says Schulze-Marmeling, who has been researching the subject for nearly 20 years and whose Bayern Munich and its Jews was voted Germany's best football book last year. "Bayern was an open-minded club with no antisemitism, so you could feel at home there. But I found only one Jewish player, a goalkeeper called Bernstein who was playing in 1926."

For decades, though, Germany's footballing Jews were invisible. Standard histories dismissed even giants like Bensemann in a single line and ignored the persecution or murder of Jewish officials and players. As recently as 2001 a journalist asking about Bayern's Jewish history was told by a club press officer: "We are not interested in these things".

Yet now Bayern supporters drape giant banners of Landauer across the stadium and club officials routinely call him "the father of modern Bayern Munich". In 2009 the club marked the 125th anniversary of his birth with a memorial event at Dachau.

"These people were written out of history because a lot of football officials collaborated with the Nazis and they didn't care about their former comrades," says Schulze-Marmeling. "It is interesting that for so many decades no one questioned this. But things have changed a lot." He gives Karl Heinz Rummenigge, a star of the '70s and '80s who is now club chairman, much of the credit for reconnecting Bayern with its Jewish past. "You get the impression it has become a personal thing for him," he says.

Makes me feel better about Saturday now. However it's still difficult to escape the impression that Hoeness' comments have a racial undertone.

No - Hoeness is just very proud of that what he and the club have reached in all of this years - and for him that is the only right modell.

And - Hoeness only gets loud when he tries to get the attention away from his players - everybody in Germany knows that by now. Hoeness might be somewhat controversial with his speeches - but on the other hand has done so much for the club and for other clubs in Germany.

But it is easy to be the moralist in this position.
 
VOOMER said:
dario2739 said:
You keep reading how the Bundesligua is the shining beacon of how a football club should be run, however read this interesting and insightful article from Martin Samuel... bit of an eyeopener...

Chelsea play Bayern Munich in the Champions League final on Saturday, so you know what that means: a week-long love-in with the Bundesliga.

Remember when Spain had the greatest teams and all we heard about was the marvellous socios? That was the way to run a league, apparently, clubs in the ownership of the supporters, no nasty foreign types holding board meetings on the subcontinent or sprinkling fairy dust on mediocrities beyond the traditional elite.

Then it turned out the socios were just as selfishly driven as any Russian oligarch, that the two biggest clubs in La Liga, Real Madrid and Barcelona, kept the rest in a swamp of comparative poverty that made the Scottish Premier League appear enlightened, and suddenly Spain did not look so good any more.

Enter Germany’s Bundesliga. High attendances, low ticket prices, free travel on match days, a majority of club shares have to be in the hands of supporters’ groups and you can even stand and have a pint. Best of all, unlike our own game, nobody goes skint because common sense rules.
Bayern blues: Arjen Robben after his side lost 5-2 to Borussia Dortmund in the German Cup final

Bayern blues: Arjen Robben after his side lost 5-2 to Borussia Dortmund in the German Cup final

That is the perception anyway. German football is increasingly depicted as the perfect model; the one to follow. The precarious fiscal state of our Premier League would not exist in Germany, we are told, because strict controls ensure financial prudence. Not exactly. German football is most certainly different; but not necessarily in the way we think.

Technically, there has never been an insolvent club in the Bundesliga, compared to 54 across English professional football since the Premier League was formed in 1992; but the Bundesliga is only 36 clubs, compared to our 92 and counting. Northwich Victoria, Farsley Celtic and Salisbury City are included in English football’s insolvencies, plus seven other teams from the Conference, while six clubs — Leeds United, Luton Town, Bournemouth, Rotherham United, Southampton and Portsmouth — account for 22.5 per cent of the insolvencies, having gone under more than once.

Expand German football similarly and the myth of stability evaporates. We don’t have to time travel to the last century, either. Here is a list of insolvencies or clubs that have been punished for financial irregularities in Germany since 2008, if extended to include competitions comparable to the Football League (Liga 3 and Regionalliga) and Conference (Oberliga plus various regional leagues).

2008: SV Darmstadt 98 (former Bundesliga, now Liga 3, insolvency); 1FC Gladbeck (former second division, now regional league, no licence); SpVgg Erkenschwick (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); Yesilyurt Berlin (Oberliga, insolvent, folded); FSV Bayreuth (regional league, insolvency).

2009: Sachsen Leipzig (former East German champions, then regional league, insolvency); Altona 93 (Regionalliga Nord, no licence); Kickers Emden (then Liga 3, now regional league, no licence); FSV Oggersheim (Regionalliga West, no licence); Viktoria Aschaffenburg (regional league, no licence); TSV Grossbardorf (Regionalliga Sud, no licence).

2010: Tennis Borussia Berlin (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); Hansa Rostock II (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated); Rot-Weiss Essen (former Bundesliga, former champions, European Cup competitors, now Regionalliga West, no licence); Bonner SC (regional league, insolvency); SV Waldhof Mannheim (former Bundesliga, Regionalliga West, no licence); SSV Reutlingen 05 (former Bundesliga, then Oberliga, insolvency); TSV Eintracht Bamberg (Regionalliga Sud, insolvency, folded); VfLGermania Leer (regional league, insolvency); Viktoria Aschaffenburg (insolvency); Preussen Hameln (regional league, no licence, club later folded).

2011: TuS Koblenz (former Bundesliga, then Liga 3, no licence); Sachsen Leipzig (insolvency, folded); RW Ahlen (former Bundesliga, then Liga 3, insolvency); SSV Ulm 1846 (former Bundesliga, now regional league, insolvency); SpVgg Weiden (Regionalliga Sud, insolvency); SpVgg Erkenschwick (no license); 1FC Kleve (Regionalliga West, insolvency).

2012: Turkiyemspor Berlin (Oberliga, insolvency); SC Borea Dresden (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated mid-season for financial reasons); VfL Kirchheim (Oberliga, voluntarily relegated midseason for financial reasons); Eintracht Nordhorn (regional league, insolvency; Kickers Emden (insolvency).

Phew. For a system that is so perfectly structured that’s quite a catalogue of financial disaster. And while most of the names will be unfamiliar, the citizens of Bamberg probably haven’t heard of Farsley Celtic or Rotherham United.
Scratch below the surface: Borussia Dortmund achieved a league and cup double, but German football is not as rosy as some would make out

Scratch below the surface: Borussia Dortmund achieved a league and cup double, but German football is not as rosy as some would make out

Not all of these clubs are minnows, either. SV Waldhof Mannheim have a ground capacity equivalent to Stoke City. Nor are the sums involved minuscule. Bonner SC were £5.61m in debt.

Yet for the really big bucks, go right to the top. For while no Bundesliga team have become insolvent, quite a few have had a fair tilt at it, only to be bailed out in a way that English clubs simply are not.

Take Hansa Rostock. Bottom of Bundesliga 2, with debts of £6.81m, they risked being busted down to the amateur ranks until the local council stepped in last week with an aid package, including a partial waiver of tax debt, the purchase of property located in Hansa’s training complex and a significant grant.

Not that they can afford it. The state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, in which Rostock is situated, is the poorest in Germany and below the European Union average in terms of gross domestic product per capita.

Yet Rostock’s escape is a familiar one. Alemannia Aachen, who will be joining them in Liga 3 next season, were also rescued from debt by the city council, having got into trouble upgrading their stadium, under pressure from the Bundesliga’s administrators. Alemannia spent £50m they didn’t have and then had to be saved with two 45-year loans.There may be trouble ahead, however, as one of those agreements was only reached on the proviso Alemannia remained a Bundesliga concern. Still, as of next season, they are not the Bundesliga’s problem, so another potential insolvency will not go down to European football’s perfect financial model.

No bankruptcies then, but there have been some close shaves. Eintracht Frankfurt have twice been docked points for financial misdeeds, as were Kaiserslautern, who were in such a mess they mortgaged their star player, Miroslav Klose, to the state lottery.

TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena to Bayern Munich to stay afloat, while Schalke 04 had debts of £248m two years ago. Meanwhile, SportFive get the first 20 per cent of all monies earned by Hamburg in perpetuity for financing their new stadium, the name of which has changed three times in nine years. And when the politicians or big business won’t help, the league or a rival club obliges. Current champions Borussia Dortmund came so close to going under they were only saved by a £1.6m loan from rivals Bayern Munich — a deal so straightforward and above board that it went unmentioned until recently, close to a decade later.
Done deal: TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena

Done deal: TSV Munich 1860 were forced to sell their half of the AllianzArena

Last year, Arminia Bielefeld were relegated after £1m to pay player wages was advanced by the Bundesliga in exchange for a three-point deduction that saw them become Liga 3’s problem.

The only reason Germany’s Bundesliga has not had three insolvencies in as many seasons is because the administrators, government or local councils have acted in a way that is foreign to the English game.

The nearest Tube station to the Emirates Stadium is Holloway Road (not, as many believe, Arsenal). Yet Holloway Road is all but closed on match days because Transport for London decided it did not want to upgrade the exit facilities which currently consist of a winding staircase and lifts. Money set aside for an escalator project ended up being spent elsewhere.

Compare this to Germany, where the Munich clubs received £168.7m from city and regional governments to develop the infrastructure around the AllianzArena, including an upgraded railway station and a broadened motorway with new exit.

German clubs can be supporter-owned because the state often picks up the tab left for English club owners. It is this inclusive thinking that allows Bundesliga match tickets to double as train passes — a fine plan, but not so easy to implement when the journey to Old Trafford might pass through several privatised networks.
That sinking feeling: Hertha Berlin's Aenis Ben-Hatira argues with fans following the club's relegation to the Bundesliga 2

That sinking feeling: Hertha Berlin's Aenis Ben-Hatira argues with fans following the club's relegation to the Bundesliga 2

And there is the issue. The problem with the new financial rules that will govern European football is that they work on the principle that one size fits all, when clearly it does not. The German model differs from the Spanish model which differs from the English model, if there is a model at all. Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the Premier League, does not believe a single defined structure exists — and looking at the ownership of, say, Wigan Athletic and Blackburn Rovers, he may be right.

Certainly, in Germany, the state appears to have greater appreciation of football’s worth to the community. Hertha Berlin did not provide any of the £194.5m required to redevelop the Olympiastadion; 1FC Koln’s stadium reconstruction was financed by the city of Cologne; the city of Frankfurt paid for the £120.5m refit for Eintracht Frankfurt; Stuttgart’s stadium is owned by a council-controlled subsidiary and central government went half in with Lokomotiv Leipzig.

German football has its own way of surviving the recession and parts of their model are truly admirable, but to argue that the Bundesliga blueprint is for all to follow, is an over-simplification. English clubs get it wrong; but so do German ones. The difference is the state-sponsored safety net.

Read more: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2143867/German-football-efficiency-The-Bundesliga-Martin-Samuel.html#ixzz1vAbON7Zf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/articl ... z1vAbON7Zf</a>

This backs up everything I've been saying about the "wonderfull bundesliga", its typical german bollocks.

That Martin Samuel got a lot wrong... Too much to discuss everything off.

The Olympic stadium was built for the Olympic games in 1936. It is not owned by the club but by the city - and it is not used only by Hertha but for a lot of other events like e.g. track and field world championships etc. Hertha pays rents when they use it and renovation costs for sure are paid by the city and not by the club itself. Nothing special with that.

Same e.g. with Stuttgart. That arena is pre-second World War II. No football arena - an arena for everything. Owner the city - not only VfB using it but it is used for a lot of events. They could build their own stadium - and certainly have thought about it - like Munich had.

And the infrastructure costs of the Allianz Arena. When a city or town creates a new industrial area that is exactly that what the town and city finances. Nothing special. On the long run the city, region, country profits from the businesses that are created there. Fröttmaning at the city limits was exactly the kind of place the city wanted to develop as a new industrial area - and they did not only do it for the arena but to settle businesses there - with new working places etc. that have nothing to do with the stadium. The left side of the Arena is still not occupied by now - but in the future of the city it will be.

The inclusion of public transport in the ticket costs... The clubs pays gives part of the ticket price to the public transport agency. In this costs for sure a group price is calculated in as well as that a lot people have their own month tickets, only use it for a short distance, do not use it at all etc. is calculated in. And in Germany a lot of the local transport is done by private trains and busses, too. But they usually are part of the public transport system and you can use them with the same ticket.

And for sure there is insolvencies in German football, too. There always is when clubs and businesses cannot handle money. What does that have to do with the German or English modell?
 
Maldeika said:
VOOMER said:
dario2739 said:
You keep reading how the Bundesligua is the shining beacon of how a football club should be run, however read this interesting and insightful article from Martin Samuel... bit of an eyeopener...

This backs up everything I've been saying about the "wonderfull bundesliga", its typical german bollocks.

That Martin Samuel got a lot wrong... Too much to discuss everything off.

The Olympic stadium was built for the Olympic games in 1936. It is not owned by the club but by the city - and it is not used only by Hertha but for a lot of other events like e.g. track and field world championships etc. Hertha pays rents when they use it and renovation costs for sure are paid by the city and not by the club itself. Nothing special with that.

Same e.g. with Stuttgart. That arena is pre-second World War II. No football arena - an arena for everything. Owner the city - not only VfB using it but it is used for a lot of events. They could build their own stadium - and certainly have thought about it - like Munich had.

And the infrastructure costs of the Allianz Arena. When a city or town creates a new industrial area that is exactly that what the town and city finances. Nothing special. On the long run the city, region, country profits from the businesses that are created there. Fröttmaning at the city limits was exactly the kind of place the city wanted to develop as a new industrial area - and they did not only do it for the arena but to settle businesses there - with new working places etc. that have nothing to do with the stadium. The left side of the Arena is still not occupied by now - but in the future of the city it will be.

The inclusion of public transport in the ticket costs... The clubs pays gives part of the ticket price to the public transport agency. In this costs for sure a group price is calculated in as well as that a lot people have their own month tickets, only use it for a short distance, do not use it at all etc. is calculated in. And in Germany a lot of the local transport is done by private trains and busses, too. But they usually are part of the public transport system and you can use them with the same ticket.

And for sure there is insolvencies in German football, too. There always is when clubs and businesses cannot handle money. What does that have to do with the German or English modell?


Still all points to state subsidy which is the main point. The Bundesliga is financially "healthy" for the same reason that RBS is - state handouts from the public purse. Another reason why FFP will implode.
 
Re: Bayern twats doing it again..

VOOMER said:
blueinsa said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
Hoeness should be honest and call Abramovich a "filthy Jew" as that's what he's clearly alluding to.

Nail on the head.

Something still very sinister amongst certain Germans mentalities imo.

The ruling elite are the same nazi bastards that they were in 1939. look at the balkans war, started by the nazi loving german backed croatians. Death of a nation, great book about utter bullshit a lies spread by nato and western media about the serbs.

Fuck off with that Serbian propaganda bullshit whoever you are.

It was not Croatians who went to Serbia to bomb them but Serbs who bombed Croatia and Bosnia.

You can talk that shit to someone else, not to one who currently live in Bosnia but born and spent whole Balkan wars in Croatia with Serbs 500m from my house bombing it each day.
 
Just don't mention ze war!

Hope Chelsea do a City and break their hearts in Aquero time, twats!
 
Yeah, I know it's not place to discuss it but just couldn't be quite about that..

I'll never forget the first day of the war, I was supposed to go to my first high-school day that morning. Woke up, it was 10AM and I was mad mum didn't call me earlier.

She just said go outside to see why and when I did it I could hear bomb detonations coming from city suburbs as Serbs went over the border earlier that morning and started to bomb shit out of us. Same night my small neighborhood got first bombs, we were first inside city itself to be bombed (Dubrovnik, you've probably hear for it). I disn't know for my brother for days as he volunteered immidiately to defend his city, his family.

4 f**ing years I've had to live with that same noise, with same fear, I was targeted by snipers when going to school or to buy bread; I could see people who are trying to kill me on the hill above my house, my whole f**ing life was affected with it and now someone comes and tries to change the history in one post because he had read some damn book written by some Serbian propagandist.
 
dont bring your fookin shite politics on here,as an ex british soldier who served out in your lands,i know from experience,that all of you are to blame for that mess you created......so dont lecture us on it,we were there sorting it...once an for all!!!!
 
Balkan politics in the CL final thread..

1300044776986.jpg


Anyway unfortunately I can see a one-sided and subsequently not very entertaining game, very comfortable 2 or 3-0 to Bayern IMO.

Hope to be proved wrong but I think German discipline will prevail, and it's their home ground.
 

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