Blaming the players

[leewill31]

This is just ANOTHER Hughes out thread,it's big & it's as usual hypocritical.

Don't knwo what your problem is pal but it seems that you are making a habit of making these snide comments on any thread I post.

As usual there is absolutely no substance to what you post, no counter argument and nothing other than snide asides. Therefore, forgive me if I take absolutely no notice of it whatsoever. Cheers.

sorry to butt in but you did :)

 

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

Ok, let me rephrase that. It is noted but there is absolutely no credence given to pathetic sniping that doesn't address anything.

I will respect anyone's views if they are structured and well argued, even if I totally disagree with them. However, if they are completely without any structure, decent argument or basis then they aren't reall worth respecting.

If they don't even make an attempt at an argument and just snipe with what they incorrectrly think are clever comments then they are pathetic.

 

[PaleBlue]

JMA - you're saying MH has ruined Micah, yet Ireland is playing his best football ever - is that down to MH or the player? is Ireland playing out of his skin in spite of MH then? Or is it possible that Micah has been found out now that he's chosen to sacrifice pace for bulk?

You never talked football whilst slagging Frank, I know why now - you don't understand the game.

 

[Uwe Rosler's Grandad]

JMA - you're saying MH has ruined Micah, yet Ireland is playing his best football ever - is that down to MH or the player? is Ireland playing out of his skin in spite of MH then? Or is it possible that Micah has been found out now that he's chosen to sacrifice pace for bulk?

You never talked football whilst slagging Frank, I know why now - you don't understand the game.

Didn't Ireland come out and say recently that he was playing well because he put in extra training (off his own back) in the summer before pre-season started?

 

[PaleBlue]

JMA - you're saying MH has ruined Micah, yet Ireland is playing his best football ever - is that down to MH or the player? is Ireland playing out of his skin in spite of MH then? Or is it possible that Micah has been found out now that he's chosen to sacrifice pace for bulk?

You never talked football whilst slagging Frank, I know why now - you don't understand the game.

Didn't Ireland come out and say recently that he was playing well because he put in extra training (off his own back) in the summer before pre-season started?

Yes - so that's down to the player then? If so then is MH responsible for Micah and Elano being poor or can we agree that they need to take responsibility also?

 

[leewill31]

Ok, let me rephrase that. It is noted but there is absolutely no credence given to pathetic sniping that doesn't address anything.

I will respect anyone's views if they are structured and well argued, even if I totally disagree with them. However, if they are completely without any structure, decent argument or basis then they aren't reall worth respecting.

If they don't even make an attempt at an argument and just snipe with what they incorrectrly think are clever comments then they are pathetic.

i agree in what you say but i think its more due to the fact you boggle some people's minds a bit with your long winded arguments(please dont take that in the wrong way) :)

 

[pominoz]

didnt ireland also say recently that it was great to work with a "proper" manager?

 

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

I think its clear that once the euphoria of getting Sven in, having some fresh blood, and the fact that we happened to win many of our home games 1-0 against weaker premiership sides had died down that the team found it's natural level.

Quiet possibly. However, there has to be some credit given to the managerial ability that manages to produce this so called intial euphoria. It is the complete opposite of what Hughes has managed to achieve upon his appointment. The Pearce team that Sven took over was playing as badly as the Sven team that Hughes took over. One manager invigorated the squad and got them believing in him. One didn't. A huge diifference.

The way I see it if Sven was unable to make that team perform like a top 7 team then Mark Hughes is unlikely to have any magic formula.

Nice number that you choose there. I notice it's not top half or top nine. However, over the course of his time here, seeing as we are so keen to compare Hughes with Sven, Sven took the team to a level of performance that equaled top nine. Hughes has, over his time here, taken the team to a level that equals nothing other than the very worst part of Sven's time here. I'm not sure why you are so keen to compare the two. Especially when I am not.

Bear in mind that we were skirting with relegation the previous season under Pearce and it's clear that of the signings Sven made, in the end only:

Elano, Petrov, Corluka, possibly Garrido added any real quality With Petrov out, Corluka gone - that's only 2 players on top of Pearce's squad.

Bojinov who neither manager has been able to pick.

Fernandes, Caceido, Benjani, Bianchi, Geovanni (Because he never picked him) have all failed to impress

Therefore when we are without our better players like SWP, Ireland, Robinho, Petrov, Johnson as we were yesterday the squad is just not good enough.

We don't have a top rate striker to go alongside Robinho despite numerous attempts to buy one.

Not sure what you are getting at here. Hughes and Sven had identical squads apart from the following. Corluka for Zab. Plus Hughes has Robinho, Jo, Kompany, SWP and TBH. Again, I'm not that bothered about comparing the results that the two have acheived but if you insist then Hughes has a better squad and has produced results that are only equal to the very worst part of Sven's term.

If you honestly believe that by signing 4 players (Not including Jo as Hughes didn't sign him) 1 - Zabelata, who replaced Corluka going out - therfore 3 net new additions, plus the 2 from Sven's reign is enough to take us close to a top six side then it is my belief you are kidding yourself.

Again, I've never stated this. I'm not that impatient. I expect them to take us somewhere that is not a relegation battle and is not numerous poor performances that seem to have little direction or progress. So, no, I don't immediately expect top six with those players. Did you expect a relegation battle and out of both cups to nobodies?

When we have a full strength side we can play some good stuff and entertain. Some of the football I have seen this season is infinitely better than what I saw at home last season.

Isolated incidents at the moment. Very isolated. For every quality peformance I can show you three poor ones. Is that an acceptable ratio?

All you are doing I'm afraid is supplying the ammunition that Man U fans want that we are yet again going to allow ourselves to implode just when the opportunity to progress presents itself - by not backing our manager.

I couldn't care less what Rags think. If you are that concerned about them that you let it cloud your judgement over whether a manager is good or not, that's your problem. I'll continue to form my opinions on what I see, not on how I think Rags will react to them.

If the players knew that we the fans were right behind Hughes, the board were right behind Hughes then those players who are quite clearly keen to create problems to protect their own backsides would realise that resistance is futile and they need to toe the line.

Assumption. Bolton fans are always on Megson's back. The players put it in for him. A situation that you will find in numerous clubs. People are 'on Hughes back' because of what he has produced. If you feel that this is down to the players not supporting him then this obviously occured prior to some fans turning. They turned because of what they have seen on the pitch. Therefore the players weren't performing for him before they turned.

Regardless of this, it is his job to keep the squad onside. Anyone sying the players won't play for him is making the biggest criticism of his managerial skills possible.

Unfortunately it's the weak and those who lack bottle who take the easy option to sack the manager as a solution. If the players know this is the recourse you will take and that will save their own skin then guess what ?

I don't really think this is actually worthy of comment. Painting yourself as some sort of heroic, strong willed, man of steel because you are prepared to back a mangager who is failing and anyone who doesn't rate him as a spineless weakling. If that is what you are saying then I don't know what to say.

(PS: did the stong heroes backing Ball help or hinder the club?)

Sadly what you are doing is undermining the fabric of the club and making Hughes job - which is hard as it is - even harder.

What I am doing is reacting to what Hughes has produced on the pitch. Nothing more, nothing less. My opinions are based only on that. If he had been anything approaching a success then my views would be different.

Managers who don't produce get sacked. Ince, Sammy Lee, Alladyce and Chris Hutchings within the past two seasons. Were their clubs destroyed or the fabric pulled away by the fans there pointing out that they had turned in shocking managerial displays? OR were they saved from possible relegations?

The united fans are very scared of the potential we have.

Again, I couldn't care less. This seems something of an obsession.

The fact that all I have heard them chant about is City tells me that they are sh*tting themsleves about what this money could do for our great club. We should be focusing our attentions on winding them b*stards up not on creating instability.

You focus on that then, I'll focus on forming an opinion on what is going on at this club.

 

[Braggster]

To Mr MaddocksAxe, I can see the force of your arguments. The thesis is as follows:

Squad good
Results crap
Therefore manager crap.

The logic is flawless. The problem is with the major premise. The squad is NOT good. It has 5 good players: Robinho, SWP, Ireland, Kompany and Zabaleta. Of the key players from last season, Petrov is injured, Richards has lost his pace and Johnson is injured (and seemingly on the piss). I can't agree with the contentions that Hughes has somehow caused Richards to lose his pace (the only thing that allowed him to play centre back adequately) or that he has made Gelson worse (crap to begin with, you're deluded if you think otherwise) or that he is responsible for Elano (barely played well since November 07). Last season's squad was a 9th-place squad AT BEST and the improvement over the summer was slim: Zabaleta in my opinion is a slight (but only slight) upgrade over Zabaleta, Jo is shit (not Hughes' fault - he didn't sign him), Ireland has improved but Johnson seems permanently injured, Robinho is obviously quality but we're without last season's best player BY FAR in Petrov.

Overall we're still weak up front and in the heart of the midfield (weaker in fact due to Johnson's permanent absence) as well as at left back (now, hopefully, solved). In that context his performance is nowhere near the total inadequacy that you rather melodramatically accused him of.

Additionally it's harder to assess his record in the transfer market as there is considerable doubt as to which transfers he's responsible for. I'd hazard Kompany, Bridge, Zab, SWP and (maybe) TBH. You rather dismissively suggest he should have no credit for spending millions on players everyone knows are good. Sorry, that is a ludicrous argument. Does Fergie get no credit for buying Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Rooney? Does Benitez get no credit for the purchase of Alonso, Torres, Skrtel, Reina? Of course they do. Hughes should be judged on who he buys in the market and in my view this is the one aspect of his tenure so far that is extremely positive. The rest - well, we'll wait and see.

 

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

Braggster, my argument is not that the squad is 'GOOD' as that depends on your definition. My argument is that it is significantly better than West Brom, West Ham, Fulham, Blackburn, Hull, Boro, Stoke, Bolton and Wigan.

All of the above do not have players that match the quality, as a group, of the five players you mention.

I also believe that the so called 'no good' players in our squad match up fairly well with the rest of the players in these team's squads.

Therefore, as we have better players than these teams, I expect better results than these teams. At the very worst, results that are equal to them. We currently have worse results than most of them.

Unless you want to tell me that most of those teams have better players than us then I'm not sure what we are disagreeing on. Only a fool would expect City to match the top four.