Britians Trillion pound horror story

[Challenger1978]

There was a very intresting documentry on channel 4 last about the financial mess the country is in and how we can get out of it.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

The basic premise of the show was we need to slash the size of the state and slash taxes. A thew key points while watching this doco stuck in my mind.

1) In China a communist state, state spending accounts for 26% of GDP. In the UK the state spending accounts for 53% of GDP.

2) A working man/women in this country on £12,000 a year pays directly and indirectly in taxes just over £7,000 a year. Leaving them with a pitance of £5,000 for themselves.

3) The largest state run service in the world outside of China is the NHS.

4) One of the main examples in this show was Hong Kong. Basically Hong Kong in the 1950 was nothing but shanty towns. Untill John Cowperthwaite turned up and slashed taxes which lead to the Kong Kong turning into the Manhattan of the far east.

Anyway i was wondering if anyone else watched this doco and wonder what you thought of it ?

 

[masterwig]

I didn't watch it but it sounds like Tory propaganda.

What, may I ask is wrong with the NHS being a big state run service? The NHS is something we should be proud of in Britain.

 

[Skashion]

1) In China a communist state, state spending accounts for 26% of GDP. In the UK the state spending accounts for 53% of GDP.

Why is it? Because they still have red stars here and there?

 

[fbloke]

There was a very intresting documentry on channel 4 last about the financial mess the country is in and how we can get out of it.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

The basic premise of the show was we need to slash the size of the state and slash taxes. A thew key points while watching this doco stuck in my mind.

1) In China a communist state, state spending accounts for 26% of GDP. In the UK the state spending accounts for 53% of GDP.

2) A working man/women in this country on £12,000 a year pays directly and indirectly in taxes just over £7,000 a year. Leaving them with a pitance of £5,000 for themselves.

3) The largest state run service in the world outside of China is the NHS.

4) One of the main examples in this show was Hong Kong. Basically Hong Kong in the 1950 was nothing but shanty towns. Untill John Cowperthwaite turned up and slashed taxes which lead to the Kong Kong turning into the Manhattan of the far east.

Anyway i was wondering if anyone else watched this doco and wonder what you thought of it ?

If China invested in its people the way that we do in the west there may be a different set of figures.

The NHS isnt as massive as suggested as there are things like the US Military Complex which is fully reliant on Government funding to survive which dwarves total UK spending.

It seems if the points you make are accurate that the programme as oversimplified things for its own ends?

 

[Challenger1978]

There was a very intresting documentry on channel 4 last about the financial mess the country is in and how we can get out of it.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

The basic premise of the show was we need to slash the size of the state and slash taxes. A thew key points while watching this doco stuck in my mind.

1) In China a communist state, state spending accounts for 26% of GDP. In the UK the state spending accounts for 53% of GDP.

2) A working man/women in this country on £12,000 a year pays directly and indirectly in taxes just over £7,000 a year. Leaving them with a pitance of £5,000 for themselves.

3) The largest state run service in the world outside of China is the NHS.

4) One of the main examples in this show was Hong Kong. Basically Hong Kong in the 1950 was nothing but shanty towns. Untill John Cowperthwaite turned up and slashed taxes which lead to the Kong Kong turning into the Manhattan of the far east.

Anyway i was wondering if anyone else watched this doco and wonder what you thought of it ?

If China invested in its people the way that we do in the west there may be a different set of figures.

The NHS isnt as massive as suggested as there are things like the US Military Complex which is fully reliant on Government funding to survive which dwarves total UK spending.

It seems if the points you make are accurate that the programme as oversimplified things for its own ends?

If you've got the time try watching the doco its explains things more clearly.

 

[Skashion]

Apparently printing money is a bad idea. Also, government money is raised through taxes and borrowing. Well, thank you very much Channel 4...

 

[Challenger1978]

Apparently printing money is a bad idea. Also, government money is raised through taxes and borrowing. Well, thank you very much Channel 4...

The state is also in debt to the tune of £4.8 Trillion if you take into account everything. Oww and 81% of northern Irelands economy is made up of state spending, 77% for Wales, 71% north east, 61% Scotland. It then goes on to ask the question if state spending does stimulate the economy (the Unions and labour are always spouting this line) why are these regions of the UK just mentioned so run down.

 

[hirop]

It was great, it was one of the first mainstream examinations of something which is common knowledge in financial circles, and has been for the past 3 years. Expect a lot more of this of the coming year. It's certainly not Tory propaganda, just simple arithmetic regarding the 4.8 trillion debt - the elephant in the room the politicians don't want to talk about (especially Labour, who promised the money away). There has been a concerted effort to obscure the costs to taxpayers of PFI & unfunded public sector pension liabilities - the former when exposed highlights incredible lack of value, and the latter which is grossly out of control because of the way public sector employment expanded in the last 10 years - an expansion not in frontline services but in the middle management & exec layers.

Politicians unable to define the difference between national deficit and national debt was the best bit - we vote these people to take responsible decisions for the good of the country, yet they can't grasp the basics or even quote an accurate number.

I'm no tory-boy, but I don't believe in this nanny state we have created, leaving people to their own devices with less government interference would be much better. It encourages businesses to grow, creates jobs and wealth, along with tax returns to go with it. If we stop spunking money away (whilst taxing the productive parts of the economy into oblivion in the process) we would have greater resources to help people who really need it. Time to remove the comfort balanket, people will cope and adapt.

 

[metalblue]

I didn't watch it but it sounds like Tory propaganda.

What, may I ask is wrong with the NHS being a big state run service? The NHS is something we should be proud of in Britain.

I saw it, it wasn't t Tory propaganda but it was certainly bias and a little disingenius in places.

For example they said the total debt was £4.8trillion - but that includes debt for all the people that haven't retired yet so a slight overstatement to say the least.

However they did make some interesting points such as;

- out of 7m people employed in public sector, only 2m are front line.
- the state accounts for 52% of employment
- for every single public job it stops at least one private sector job

they gave examples of how a big states can hinder growth and countered some of the oft quoted examples of the "state creates", also looked at how other health services compare with the NHS.

basically the general theme was:

The public sector is a tax consumer
The private sector is a tax creator
And the public sector should not be bigger (or perhaps as big as it is)

however the program wasn't as balanced as it should have been, that doesn't mean the arguments weren't correct

 

[Skashion]

I generally have a lot of sympathy with programs like this but where it annoys me when the argument is made that the public sector adds no value at all. That if the public sector were scrapped tomorrow we'd have no need of education, doctors and nurses etc. which is of course, complete nonsense. This program manipulates the non-productive public sector elements to the extreme. So, we're in £4.8 trillion in debt and if the public sector didn't exist, this nasty little debt would go away. No, you'd simply have to pay to send your kids to school, pay for hospital bills etc. It would provide more choice, it would introduce market mechanisms which should bring about more responsiveness, but would it provide better value for money? It's an argument I struggle with. Let's assume the market is not only more responsive but also more efficient. Is it so efficient that it overcomes the need for a private company to be profitable? If so, how much of that profit is then reinvested productively rather than spent buying private planes, yachts, mansions, cars etc - which are non-productive. I still haven't seen anywhere near as much evidence on this as I would like, and if anybody has some, please share it, but that which I have seen has been far from conclusive in favour of the private sector.