British Justice ... it sucks in this instance.

[Prestwich_Blue]

It's ChicagoBlue's opinions that are being challenged not his nationality. He claimed that the incidence of Breaking & Entering was far lower in the USA than in the UK when in fact the opposite is true on a comparable basis.

BULLSHIT! Never said it, nor do I believe it.

Oh yes you did! Bottom of page 15 my friend. You said...

BTW, you would be surprise how little B&E we have here! Or maybe you wouldn't?!

I cited my source and what the comparable basis was on page 21 but to save you looking here's the relevant part of the post again:

Reported burglaries in the USA are about 700 per 100,000 people. In the UK, it's about 500/100,000. So it's lower here anyway but burglary is defined quite differently in the 2 countries and is much wider in the UK, where even an unsuccessful attempt to enter a property with intent to steal is classed as a burglary. About 40% of these actually involve entry to a property resulting in a theft, which is the US definition. That means that the equivalent figures in the UK are around 200/100,000. Doesn't seem like facing an armed householder is much of a deterrent then.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.copinthehood.com/2011/09/burglary-in-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.copinthehood.com/2011/09/burglary-in-uk.html</a>

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It's ChicagoBlue's opinions that are being challenged not his nationality. He claimed that the incidence of Breaking & Entering was far lower in the USA than in the UK when in fact the opposite is true on a comparable basis.

BULLSHIT! Never said it, nor do I believe it.

Oh yes you did! Bottom of page 15 my friend. You said...

BTW, you would be surprise how little B&E we have here! Or maybe you wouldn't?!

I cited my source and what the comparable basis was on page 21 but to save you looking here's the relevant part of the post again:

Reported burglaries in the USA are about 700 per 100,000 people. In the UK, it's about 500/100,000. So it's lower here anyway but burglary is defined quite differently in the 2 countries and is much wider in the UK, where even an unsuccessful attempt to enter a property with intent to steal is classed as a burglary. About 40% of these actually involve entry to a property resulting in a theft, which is the US definition. That means that the equivalent figures in the UK are around 200/100,000. Doesn't seem like facing an armed householder is much of a deterrent then.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.copinthehood.com/2011/09/burglary-in-uk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.copinthehood.com/2011/09/burglary-in-uk.html</a>

By HERE I meant in my tree-lined, upper middle class, somewhat affluent Chicago suburb (which I believe I discussed in one of the posts)…..which is where my firearm resides. My town is more Altrincham than Moss Side! That's why i highlighted the generalization you made from where I live to a comparison between the whole USA and UK.

Simply by virtue of me living in America and having a gun, it appears I have become the focus of some kind of illogical reverse jingoism. I am not responsible for American gun culture, but as a function of living outside one of the highest crime cities in the so-called civilized world, I have somehow become the poster child for those that believe guns are bad, more guns are worse, and the number of guns owned by Americans is worst of all.

Funny thing is, I feel the same way about much of this gun "debate" as many of you, because too many guns are owned by too many people who are neither trained nor responsible in their storage or use….and we all read about them all the time!

As soon as the 911/999 issue arose, the point was made that Americans would deal with it a different way. I don't think they would, but my change of focus to that allusion being more accurate with a home invasion than a bar fight started a firestorm of liberal condemnation….ironically, something I am often accused of here in the rather conservative US of A. Then began an ill-informed character assassination, whereby people who don't know me projected a "typical American" caricature, replete with internet pics, etc…

It is as if after the OP, I had said, "What do you expect from a typical Manc scrote? I'm sure he did bottle this poor bastard in the back of the head before sucker punching him a few times and head butting him, so he probably deserved to get sent down. Probably ran into a bunch of his mates inside, because you know he has to know someone in there! After all, the only thing that most men in Manc are good for is getting pissed up, stumbling around like prepubescent children and fighting for no good reason….and they wonder why they are all seen as unemployable, tattooed, toothless, shaved headed arseholes by people everywhere else in England and the world!"

I'm sure THAT silly, overly broad, unflattering generalization would have gone down well………

So, given all that has been cleared up, I'm done with this thread. Y'all have fun dissecting the British Injustice System that has decided a cowardly attack in a pub deserves a custodial sentence, because the victim lied and the Judge was far from impartial. Sounds like I'm the one missing all the fun in the cradle of democracy by living such a law-abiding, fulfilling life in America AND getting to fly over and see City every few weeks.

 

[BigJoe#1]

CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, please settle down. Now Chicagoblue, you go and stand outside the headmasters (or Principals if you prefer) better known as Ric's office. If you want to talk about shooting people might I suggest you start your own thread.

As for you two, Nijinskys Fetlocks and Prestwich Blue go and stand in the corner at the back of the Cellar, you over there on the left Prestwich Blue and you can go to the others side Nijinskys Fetlocks.

Now please can we resume order and carry on dissing Oakies neighbour- Thank you!

80))

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Oakies neighbor is a dick!
(Shouted from the far corner of the room.)

 

[SWP's back]

Chicago Blue has point his point across very well in the past few pages, in my opinion.

And I'm very anti-guns.

 

[Skashion]

Cars, in the wrong hands, are a deadly weapon used to kill innocent people. They are used for this purpose every single day. So are guns. I believe there should be strong legal consequences for a BOTH outcomes.

Of note, I readily concede most of the above. None of it has anything to do with my owning a gun, which is locked away, which my 16 yr old son knows how to use effectively but to which he has no access without me.

It is simplistic to make all the assertions above without recognizing that guns have also saved the lives of many, many people who could otherwise have been innocent victims.

You don't believe you could accidentally mistake a family member for an intruder? But you've already said you would use deadly force against an intruder. So it must be that you're immune to misidentifying someone. I bet every gun owner who ever shot a family member by mistake thought the same thing until it was too late. By the way, the stats indicate from this factor ALONE that you're probably more likely to harm a family member.

Accidental discharge. You're not immune to that either. There's plenty of cases of police officers with accidental discharges to their name. Just did a quick Google search to find a recent incident. This story was posted nine hours ago: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.wsvn.com/story/25811797/officer-accidentally-discharges-gun-inside-courthouse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.wsvn.com/story/25811797/offi ... courthouse</a> Also, according to a report by the NYPD, accidental discharges were the third most common cause of firearms discharges and police officers were only just over twice as likely to have discharged in conflict. For 2011 over 16% of all firearms discharges by the NYPD were accidental ones.

As for protecting against a suicide attempt, I hope that tragedy never has cause to visit you and that access to your gun takes more than just an easily-found key. However, again, the stats show that the risk of teen suicide is great and that suicide attempts are both more common and more successful in households with guns. Again, I assume many of those people assumed like you, that they'd taken all precautions.

Chances are, of course, that you'll be fine and you'll never have to shoot an intruder or accidentally shoot a family member, or have a case of accidental discharge which injures or kills someone, but that would be equally true if you didn't have a gun. I sincerely hope you've taken all the precautions you possibly can and that you're a model gun owner. However, I still think you'll struggle considering the factual weight of evidence against you, to make your home safer with a gun than without one. As much as you may attempt to mitigate the risks, it's still fairly easy to conclude the best way for your family members to be safe is by not owning a gun at all.

 

[Cellarite]

We all know the Yanks solution and it'd cause far more trouble than a Stella bottle across the back of the head.

Yep, made a mistake..999!

And, let's not lump all Yanks in with some of the boneheads and looney toons we have over here.

Now, if someone breaks into my house.....well, they are not getting out alive, unless they run away when I say, "armed federal officer, leave now or I WILL kill you." Oh, and it would be an open and shut case, without any charges even filed!

Not only are you mistaken, but YOU were the one that threw in the tired old nugget about America....which was clearly said in direct connection to my Forum Name!

From there, it devolved into a liberal dissertation of why I shouldn't have a gun, that I'm Dirty Harry, that I'm a nut job, pics of looney toons were posted, everyone suddenly had a stupid America accent in their posts, etc, etc, etc.....

Some of you guys are a fucking joke. Others, just funny!

I was refering to the trouble caused by phoning Pizza Express rather than getting hit with a bullet.

 

[SWP's back]

I think his point his point is pointy point

Point

PMSL

 

[SWP's back]

Cars, in the wrong hands, are a deadly weapon used to kill innocent people. They are used for this purpose every single day. So are guns. I believe there should be strong legal consequences for a BOTH outcomes.

Of note, I readily concede most of the above. None of it has anything to do with my owning a gun, which is locked away, which my 16 yr old son knows how to use effectively but to which he has no access without me.

It is simplistic to make all the assertions above without recognizing that guns have also saved the lives of many, many people who could otherwise have been innocent victims.

You don't believe you could accidentally mistake a family member for an intruder? But you've already said you would use deadly force against an intruder. So it must be that you're immune to misidentifying someone.

I would say that is not difficult.

 

[Skashion]

I would say that is not difficult.

The statistics say otherwise.

 

[Challenger1978]

I would say that is not difficult.

The statistics say otherwise.

What are the statistic for highly trained law enforcement officers (I'm guessing that is what chicagoblue is).

 

[Skashion]

I would say that is not difficult.

The statistics say otherwise.

What are the statistic for highly trained law enforcement officers (I'm guessing that is what chicagoblue is).

Don't think he is actually.

 

[SWP's back]

I would say that is not difficult.

The statistics say otherwise.

Ah stats eh.

Here is one for you:

In 2006, 642 people died in the United States from the accidental discharge of firearms. This is according to the 2010 Statistical Handbook of the U.S. Census Bureau.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.numberof.net/number-of-accidental-gun-deaths/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.numberof.net/number-of-accid ... un-deaths/</a>

In 2000 (don't have the 2006 data), 1,307 died falling down the stairs.

<a class="postlink" href="http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm</a>

I don't see you advocating (at length) that we should all live in bungalows.

But back to your point, statistics can say an awful lot. There are a huge number of idiotic people about, as an example, in 1997 37 people were admitted to hospital with tea cosy related injuries.

I don't think it is hard to assume I would be better than some at recognising a family member within my own property, I am not Oscar Pistorius.

 

[Danielmanc]

Poor old 'Ant' the toilet aggressor seems to have been forgotten in this thread

 

[dronefromsector7g]

Poor old 'Ant' the toilet aggressor seems to have been forgotten in this thread

Who?

Just praying Chicago Blue goes postal and starts threatening everyone :-)

 

[SWP's back]

Poor old 'Ant' the toilet aggressor seems to have been forgotten in this thread

Because he is a thug.

 

[oakiecokie]

Poor old 'Ant' the toilet aggressor seems to have been forgotten in this thread

Because he is a thug.

Of course he is.Thats why he pleaded guilty to an attack (but not with a bottle/glass).

 

[Pelly Greeny]

I would say that is not difficult.

The statistics say otherwise.

Statistically I have more legs than the average man.

Just saying that's all.

 

[SWP's back]

Poor old 'Ant' the toilet aggressor seems to have been forgotten in this thread

Because he is a thug.

Of course he is.Thats why he pleaded guilty to an attack.

I not sure how you think that would mean he isn't one.

 

[Skashion]

Ah stats eh.

Here is one for you:

In 2006, 642 people died in the United States from the accidental discharge of firearms. This is according to the 2010 Statistical Handbook of the U.S. Census Bureau.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.numberof.net/number-of-accidental-gun-deaths/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.numberof.net/number-of-accid ... un-deaths/</a>

In 2000 (don't have the 2006 data), 1,307 died falling down the stairs.

<a class="postlink" href="http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm</a>

I don't see you advocating (at length) that we should all life in bungalows.

But back to your point, statistics can say an awful lot. There are a huge number of idiotic people about, as an example, in 1997 37 people were admitted to hospital with tea cosy related injuries.

I don't think it is hard to assume I would be better than some at recognising a family member within my own property, I am not Oscar Pistorius.

How many intruders killed? That's the pertinent point as to whether they make your home safer vis-a-vis not doing or how many people killed by random (unknown to victim) intruders in non-gun owning households.

Well no, because houses have a clear purpose, including multi-storey houses, cars ditto. They have risks but they have very clear benefits. Guns have one purpose, to kill people. There's no external benefit at all to owning a gun like much like there is a considerable one with a multi-storey house or driving a car. Either guns make your family safer, or they don't. The evidence is pretty heavily weighted towards the don't side of the argument.

How many times does an intruder break in versus how many times is it just a family member returning late, probably pissed off their face, and rummaging around in the dark. The fact that you can recognise a family member better than a stranger, or might not immediately fire but instead turn on a light or shout down and wait to recognise a familiar voice, has to overwhelm the sheer likelihood of it being much more often being a family member. This is why despite of logic like yours, and despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of those types of incidents won't end in a shooting, ENOUGH will, to create the situation where you're more likely to be shot accidentally than an intruder by correct identification.