Can they ever be caught?

[ancoats]

could not give a shit about the past, its the here and now that counts and not pasted glory

 

[adr2.8i]

Professional football, by definition, is all about big business. Otherwise Old Etonians, Wanderers, Royal Engineers etc. would all still be top clubs in an amateur sport.

Every football club who’s ever been successful since the sport became professional in 1885 have spent heavily on wages and transfer fees; probably more than most of the rest.

Arsenal’s successful 1920s team were called the Bank of England Club because they built the most expensive football team ever seen at the time, when they’d never previously won or even challenged for a trophy, which allowed them to become successful.
Liverpool’s successful 1970s and 80s era started their rise to the top after outspending everyone in the Second Division (where they’d spent 8 years and were going nowhere before the Moores family pumped money into them), and most of the First Division, to get promoted… then outspending everyone in the First Division to enter a period of dominance with the most expensive football team ever seen at the time.
United’s success under Ferguson certainly didn’t start with money from their own success like the Rags always seem to say, since all they won was 3 FA Cups in the 22 years before Ferguson’s successful era began. They spent their owner’s money to build the most expensive football team ever seen at the time, won the FA Cup and ECWC, then we’re sold to Knighton who then floated United on the Stock Exchange to again allow United to build the most expensive team ever seen at the time who went on to win multiple league titles.

Through every era since the game became professional, the amount of money each club needs to rise up the league and achieve success perpetually grows. Therefore, the bigger the business always gets. That was the case when the likes of Arsenal overtook the likes of Aston Villa as a top side in the 1920s, and the same now as we’ve seen the likes of City overtake the likes of United as a top side in the last decade.

Wow I never knew Liverpool spent 8 years in the old 2nd division!! I thought they just did a United and spent just one season there and bounced straight back up!!

I wonder how the tables would look if you took out the United and Liverpool golden eras...I bet it would look pretty equal. Say a honours table upto 1970....

 

[Gordyola]

Last Updated: 2021/2022 season!

Here is where City stand on the four major trophy fronts, each one just listed as far so to include Spurs, United, Liverpool, City, Arsenal and Chelsea.

Top Division Title
Man United 20
Liverpool 19
Arsenal 13
Everton 9
City 8
Villa 7
Sunderland 6
Chelsea 6
Spurs 2

FA Cup
Arsenal 14
United 12
Spurs 8
Chelsea 8
Liverpool 8
Villa 7
City 6
Blackburn 6
Newcastle 6

League Cup
Liverpool 9
City 8
United 5
Villa 5
Chelsea 5
Spurs 4
Forest 4
Leicester 3
Arsenal 2

European Cup
Liverpool 6
United 3
Forest 2
Chelsea 2
Villa 1
City 0
Arsenal 0
Spurs 0

Total of above
Liverpool 41
United 40
Arsenal 27
City 22
Chelsea 21
Villa 20
Spurs 14

European Cup pre 1992 should not be counted as the same as the UCL IMHO a completely different competition the only thing in common is the trophy

UCL Winners (Runs-UP)
United 2 (2) {1 Chelsea}
Chelsea 2 (1) {1 City}
Liverpool 2 (3) {1 Spurs}
Spurs 0 (1)
City 0 (1)

Interestingly of the above {3} of the final wins have been against other PL opponents

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Just a couple of historical inaccuracies in your post that I thought you should be aware of -
Firstly - Arsenal didn't become a major football powerhouse until the 1930s .
They won the FA Cup in 1930 and then went on to win multiple trophies in the following 9 years ( City did exactly the same after winning the Cup in 2011).
And Arsenal also became infamous as the first and only club to allow a team from outside England to win the FA Cup in 1927 (Cardiff City).
Secondly - Michael Knighton never completed his proposed takeover of United, although he did eventually become a director of the club.
Martin Edwards remained in control of United throughout that period, until the takeover by the Glazers .

Cheers mate.

I did mean the 1930s for Arsenal (now amended) but always had it in my head that Knighton bought United and put them straight on the stock exchange, don’t know where I got that from haha

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Wow I never knew Liverpool spent 8 years in the old 2nd division!! I thought they just did a United and spent just one season there and bounced straight back up!!

I wonder how the tables would look if you took out the United and Liverpool golden eras...I bet it would look pretty equal. Say a honours table upto 1970....

Top 10 Honours, by 1915
Aston Villa: 6 league titles, 5 FA Cups (11 trophies)
Blackburn: 2 league titles, 5 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Sunderland: 5 league titles (5)
Newcastle: 3 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 Charity Shield (5)
United: 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 2 Charity Shields (5)
Sheffield United: 1 league title, 3 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (5)
Wanderers: 5 FA Cups (5)
Sheffield Wednesday: 2 league titles, 2 FA Cups (4)
Preston: 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup (3)
Everton: 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup (3)


Top 10 Honours, by 1939
Aston Villa: 6 league titles, 6 FA Cups (12 trophies)
Arsenal: 5 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 5 Charity Shields (12 trophies)
Everton: 5 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 2 Charity Shields (9)
Blackburn: 2 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (9)
Sunderland: 6 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Newcastle: 4 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Sheffield Wednesday: 4 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Sheffield United: 1 league title, 4 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (6)
Huddersfield: 3 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 Charity Shield (5)
Preston: 2 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (5)



Top 10 Honours, by 1970
United: 7 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 7 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup (18 trophies)
Arsenal: 7 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 7 Charity Shields (17)
Everton: 7 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 4 Charity Shields (14)
Aston Villa: 6 league titles, 7 FA Cups, 1 League Cup (14)
Tottenham: 2 league titles, 5 FA Cups, 5 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (13)
Liverpool: 7 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 3 Charity Shields (11)
Newcastle: 4 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (11)
Wolves: 3 league titles, 4 FA Cups, 4 Charity Shields (11)
City: 2 league titles, 4 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 2 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (10)
West Brom: 1 league title, 5 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 2 Charity Shields (9)


Top 10 Honours, today
United: 20 league titles, 12 FA Cups, 5 EFL Cups, 21 Community Shields, 3 Champions Leagues, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 Europa League, 1 Super Cup, 2 Club World Cups (66 trophies)
Liverpool: 19 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 9 EFL Cups, 15 Community Shields, 6 Champions Leagues, 3 UEFA Cups, 4 Super Cups, 1 Club World Cup (65)
Arsenal: 13 league titles, 14 FA Cups, 2 EFL Cups, 16 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (46)
Chelsea: 6 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 5 EFL Cups, 4 Community Shields, 2 Champions Leagues, 2 Europa Leagues, 2 European Cup Winners Cups, 2 Super Cups, 1 World Club Cup (35)
City: 8 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 8 EFL Cups, 6 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (29)
Everton: 9 league titles, 5 FA Cups, 9 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (24)
Tottenham: 2 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 4 EFL Cups, 7 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 2 UEFA Cups (24)
Aston Villa: 7 league titles, 7 FA Cups, 5 EFL Cups, 1 Community Shield, 1 European Cup, 1 Super Cup (22)
Newcastle: 4 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (11)
Wolves: 3 league titles, 4 FA Cups, 4 Charity Shields (11)

 

[Deleted member 77198]

So we did win a quadruple then?

Indeed. We were the “Fourmidables” that season winning, the domestic quadruple.

 

[malg]

Community Shields......???

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Community Shields......???

“The Community Shield? Why does nobody count it? I would like an answer! In Spain and Germany it’s important. We have won two titles this season[*] and have three to play but everyone says one. Why play if it doesn’t count? We could have longer holidays.”

Pep Guardiola, 2019.

[*at that point in that season we’d won the Community Shield and EFL Cup and we were still in the Premier League title race, FA Cup and Champions League]

 

[malg]

“The Community Shield? Why does nobody count it? I would like an answer! In Spain and Germany it’s important. We have won two titles this season[*] and have three to play but everyone says one. Why play if it doesn’t count? We could have longer holidays.”

Pep Guardiola, 2019.

[*at that point in that season we’d won the Community Shield and EFL Cup and we’re still in the Premier League title race, FA Cup and Champions League]

Because it's a friendly.

I actually made a rather flippant point once that it was more difficult to win than the CL as you had to win something to even be in it (apart from the years when the double was won).

 

[adr2.8i]

Top 10 Honours, by 1915
Aston Villa: 6 league titles, 5 FA Cups (11 trophies)
Blackburn: 2 league titles, 5 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Sunderland: 5 league titles (5)
Newcastle: 3 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 Charity Shield (5)
Sheffield United: 1 league title, 3 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (5)
United: 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 2 Charity Shields (5)
Wanderers: 5 FA Cups (5)
Sheffield Wednesday: 2 league titles, 2 FA Cups (4)
Preston: 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup (3)
Everton: 2 league titles, 1 FA Cup


Top 10 Honours, by 1939
Aston Villa: 6 league titles, 6 FA Cups (12 trophies)
Arsenal: 5 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 5 Charity Shields (12 trophies)
Everton: 5 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 2 Charity Shields (9)
Blackburn: 2 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (9)
Sunderland: 6 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Newcastle: 4 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Sheffield Wednesday: 4 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (8)
Huddersfield: 3 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 1 Charity Shield (5)
Preston: 2 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (5)
Liverpool: 4 league titles (4)


Top 10 Honours, by 1970
United: 7 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 7 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup (18 trophies)
Arsenal: 7 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 7 Charity Shields (17)
Aston Villa: 6 league titles, 7 FA Cups, 1 League Cup (14)
Everton: 7 league titles, 3 FA Cups, 4 Charity Shields (14)
Tottenham: 2 league titles, 5 FA Cups, 5 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (13)
Newcastle: 4 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (11)
Liverpool: 7 league titles, 1 FA Cup, 3 Charity Shields (11)
Wolves: 3 league titles, 4 FA Cups, 4 Charity Shields (11)
City: 2 league titles, 4 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 2 Charity Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (10)
West Brom: 1 league title, 5 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 2 Charity Shields (9)


Top 10 Honours, today
United: 20 league titles, 12 FA Cups, 5 EFL Cups, 21 Community Shields, 3 Champions Leagues, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 Europa League, 1 Super Cup, 2 Club World Cups (66 trophies)
Liverpool: 19 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 9 EFL Cups, 15 Community Shields, 6 Champions Leagues, 3 UEFA Cups, 4 Super Cups, 1 Club World Cup (65)
Arsenal: 13 league titles, 14 FA Cups, 2 EFL Cups, 16 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (46)
Chelsea: 6 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 5 EFL Cups, 4 Community Shields, 2 Champions Leagues, 2 Europa Leagues, 2 European Cup Winners Cups, 2 Super Cups, 1 World Club Cup (35)
City: 8 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 8 EFL Cups, 6 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (29)
Everton: 9 league titles, 5 FA Cups, 9 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup (24)
Tottenham: 2 league titles, 8 FA Cups, 4 EFL Cups, 7 Community Shields, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 2 UEFA Cups (24)
Aston Villa: 7 league titles, 7 FA Cups, 5 EFL Cups, 1 Community Shield, 1 European Cup, 1 Super Cup (22)
Newcastle: 4 league titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 Charity Shield (11)
Wolves: 3 league titles, 4 FA Cups, 4 Charity Shields (11)

Thanks for that!! I didn't realise it was that close up until 1970! Liverpool just the one more trophy than us, and United just 8 more!!
So 1970 must be the start of "istree" and winning things "the right way"