City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

Chris in London, yours is quite an interesting post and highlights the fact that some form of regulation per se is perhaps not without some merit. The trouble is that there appears to be no form of regulation which would be seen as “fair”. The demands for regulation have come most persistently from clubs such as Arsenal, who see “fair play” as allowing clubs to “spend only what they earn”. They do not consider any cap on their spending to enable teams such as Norwich or Stoke, or even Aston Villa to compete “fairly” with them, even before we are brought to consider the meaning of “what they earn” (and therefore what they spend) and certainly before we consider the historical origins of this spending power. The following points have to be made about attempts to regulate the finances of football clubs:-

1. they do not occur in a vacuum. Originally they were supposed to deal with the problem of debt, but in their final form they ignore that problem. This means that some clubs are effectively given treatment which is preferential in the extreme. Manchester United are heavily indebted but are allowed to carry this debt: Manchester City are to be subject to draconian penalties if they overspend. Manchester City are to be “protected” just in case their owners “walk away”: the possibility of the Glazers “walking away” is to be considered as “unrealistic”....

2. only one aspect of the balance sheet is to be given any consideration at all. Arsenal can borrow as much as they like to build a bumper new stadium, owners can invest as much as they like on “infrastructure”. The only spending which is controlled is that on players (an asset like a ground!) and wages. This is, of course, intended to make sure that the wealthiest clubs keep their right to all the best players.

3. this is where the historical origin of a club's wealth is interesting. The richest clubs in the world have been most of the time in the recent past, since 1992 at least, Manchester United, Arsenal, Real, Barca, the Milans, Juventus, Bayern Munich. In 2003 they were joined by Chelsea, and later by Manchester City, PSG and Monaco. The latest three hold a privileged position only because of the disgraceful “doping” their owners have carried out. On this forum we know much of this “doping” has actually been investment permitted even under UEFA's new rules, but we also know that the established aristocracy of club football all owe their position to such “doping”: Munich in the early sixties, United several times, most recently 1986 – 1992. Or they have had very wealthy owners ploughing money in: this is the Italian model. Or they have received aid from the state or benefited from questionable property deals. Such “doping” allowed them to enjoy an income which bought success and success which led to impressive growth of other “revenue streams”. UEFA never objected to this and in fact Mr Platini benefited from such arrangements as a player.

4. these “revenue streams” are interesting. They include “commercial activities” and TV money. These are traditional, but have increased enormously over the last 20+ years – funnily enough for clubs who were successful because of their already larger income and expanding stadia! But from the mid -1980s onwards they came to include sponsorship. FFPR will mean that foreign car companies, American investment banks and Bavarian car companies or insurance companies can put more money into a football club through sponsorship than the owner is allowed to! Is this really in the interests of the game or the “integrity” of competitions? Did the sponsors of WBA not seek to influence team selection by withdrawing their sponsorship if one particular player was selected?

5. but these measures are introduced by the game's governing body to maintain competition. This can be proved not to be the case. Uefa is behaving no as a governing body, but as a competing party trying to increase its own share of a market it already dominates. It negotiates TV payments and sponsorship and uses European competitions as the vehicle. And it distributes financial rewards to confer a competitive advantage on certain clubs in other, domestic tournaments. It's FFPR will protect that advantage.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Few words for thought after the newspapers claims on the Liverpool situation yesterday from the regulations written by UEFA:
Article 11 – Equal treatment and confidentiality
1 The licensor ensures equal treatment of all licence applicants during the core
process.
Article 12 – Definition of licence applicant
1 A licence applicant may only be a football club, i.e. a legal entity fully responsible
for a football team participating in national and international competitions which
either:
a) is a registered member of a UEFA member league
1 The licence applicant must prove that as at 31 March preceding the licence
season it has no overdue payables (as defined in Annex VIII) towards its
employees as well as social/tax authorities as a result of contractual and legal
obligations towards its employees that arose prior to the previous 31 December.
1 All licensees that have qualified for a UEFA club competition must comply with
the monitoring requirements, i.e. with the break-even requirement (Articles 58 to
63) and with the other monitoring requirements (Articles 64 to 68).


The following clubs are exempt from the break-even requirement:
a) a club that qualifies for a UEFA club competition on sporting merit and is
granted special permission as defined in Article 15;
b) a licensee that demonstrates it has relevant income and relevant expenses
(as defined in Article 58) below EUR 5 million in respect of each of the two
reporting periods ending in the two years before commencement of the
UEFA club competitions. Such an exemption decision is taken by the UEFA
Club Financial Control Body and is final.
Article 15
1 If a club qualifies for a UEFA club competition on sporting merit but has not
undergone any licensing process at all or has undergone a licensing process
which is lesser/not equivalent to the one applicable for top division clubs,
because it belongs to a division other than the top division,
the UEFA member
association of the club concerned may – on behalf of such a club – request an
extraordinary application of the club licensing system in accordance with
Annex IV.
2 Based on such an extraordinary application, UEFA may grant special permission
to the club to enter the corresponding UEFA club competition subject to the
relevant UEFA club competition regulations. Such an extraordinary application
applies only to the specific club and for the season in question.

Liverpool belong to the top division of a UEFA member league, will presumably qualify for a UEFA European club competition, (F.A. or in our case Premier League as the F.A. have delegated) and have been a member for at least 3 years, with turnover exceeding 5m euro in each of those years, therefore they are not exempt and have to pass the break-even requirement like everyone else.


The point is Liverpool and Monaco haven't qualified yet. So although they won't be analysed yet in the first tranche they WILL be analysed along with probable non-compliant clubs in September.
 
@blueanorak neither have we qualified, they'll have to analyse all clubs before the qualifiers begin in the summer, as platini said earlier in the season, it's just the newspapers rushing out with articles about things they don't understand e.g. sports journalists writing finance articles. I think.
 
BluessinceHydeRoad said:
Chris in London, yours is quite an interesting post and highlights the fact that some form of regulation per se is perhaps not without some merit. The trouble is that there appears to be no form of regulation which would be seen as “fair”. The demands for regulation have come most persistently from clubs such as Arsenal, who see “fair play” as allowing clubs to “spend only what they earn”. They do not consider any cap on their spending to enable teams such as Norwich or Stoke, or even Aston Villa to compete “fairly” with them, even before we are brought to consider the meaning of “what they earn” (and therefore what they spend) and certainly before we consider the historical origins of this spending power. The following points have to be made about attempts to regulate the finances of football clubs:-

1. they do not occur in a vacuum. Originally they were supposed to deal with the problem of debt, but in their final form they ignore that problem. This means that some clubs are effectively given treatment which is preferential in the extreme. Manchester United are heavily indebted but are allowed to carry this debt: Manchester City are to be subject to draconian penalties if they overspend. Manchester City are to be “protected” just in case their owners “walk away”: the possibility of the Glazers “walking away” is to be considered as “unrealistic”....

2. only one aspect of the balance sheet is to be given any consideration at all. Arsenal can borrow as much as they like to build a bumper new stadium, owners can invest as much as they like on “infrastructure”. The only spending which is controlled is that on players (an asset like a ground!) and wages. This is, of course, intended to make sure that the wealthiest clubs keep their right to all the best players.

3. this is where the historical origin of a club's wealth is interesting. The richest clubs in the world have been most of the time in the recent past, since 1992 at least, Manchester United, Arsenal, Real, Barca, the Milans, Juventus, Bayern Munich. In 2003 they were joined by Chelsea, and later by Manchester City, PSG and Monaco. The latest three hold a privileged position only because of the disgraceful “doping” their owners have carried out. On this forum we know much of this “doping” has actually been investment permitted even under UEFA's new rules, but we also know that the established aristocracy of club football all owe their position to such “doping”: Munich in the early sixties, United several times, most recently 1986 – 1992. Or they have had very wealthy owners ploughing money in: this is the Italian model. Or they have received aid from the state or benefited from questionable property deals. Such “doping” allowed them to enjoy an income which bought success and success which led to impressive growth of other “revenue streams”. UEFA never objected to this and in fact Mr Platini benefited from such arrangements as a player.

4. these “revenue streams” are interesting. They include “commercial activities” and TV money. These are traditional, but have increased enormously over the last 20+ years – funnily enough for clubs who were successful because of their already larger income and expanding stadia! But from the mid -1980s onwards they came to include sponsorship. FFPR will mean that foreign car companies, American investment banks and Bavarian car companies or insurance companies can put more money into a football club through sponsorship than the owner is allowed to! Is this really in the interests of the game or the “integrity” of competitions? Did the sponsors of WBA not seek to influence team selection by withdrawing their sponsorship if one particular player was selected?

5. but these measures are introduced by the game's governing body to maintain competition. This can be proved not to be the case. Uefa is behaving no as a governing body, but as a competing party trying to increase its own share of a market it already dominates. It negotiates TV payments and sponsorship and uses European competitions as the vehicle. And it distributes financial rewards to confer a competitive advantage on certain clubs in other, domestic tournaments. It's FFPR will protect that advantage.

I'd agree with almost all of that.

I think we can all agree that the 'only spend what you earn' approach really does cement in place the current cartel. One of the posts upstream makes the point that a club that qualifies for the knockout stage of the CL every year for three years makes more money than under FFPR you are allowed to spend to try and bridge the gap. So 'spend what you earn plus no more than €15m for three years' just allows the gap to get wider, because your competitors all earned €25m + every year.

On the other hand, at least in principle you can see how carrying losses on an unlimited and indefinite basis until the competition withers and dies is anti-competitive.

What I see however is only an abstract danger of the second happening, and a very very real and present danger of the first happening. City, PSG, Chelsea etc are not blitzing Barca Madrid and Bayern off the park with the wages and transfer fees we are offering. We are competitive, and we require owner-generated subsidy to be competitive, but it is no more than that. We could for instance have offered Isco five times whatever Madrid offered him: we didn't and he went there.

On the other hand, the same group of about 10 clubs have reached the last 16 of the champions league for something like ten years or so, or at worst for nine of the last ten years. When did Arsenal last fail to get through the group stage? Or Barca, or Madrid, or Bayern? How many times have the rags failed to make the knockout stage in the last 10 years? Or Inter?

So you have this elite group which day by day is getting further and further away in financial terms, and you have regulations which in their present form cement that disparity rather than allow for it to be challenged.
 
Woops sorry we've qualified for the europa league, but not the champions league, but right now they're looking at clubs that haven't qualified for anything yet, I'd just say clubs that weren't in europe this season are in a later batch of assessments and the papers have put two and two together and got five. Not the first time.
 
Re: City & FFP (updated)

aguero93:20 said:
Woops sorry we've qualified for the europa league, but not the champions league, but right now they're looking at clubs that haven't qualified for anything yet, I'd just say clubs that weren't in europe this season are in a later batch of assessments and the papers have put two and two together and got five. Not the first time.

Not only that. The 76 doesnt include anyone that made a profit in 11/12 regardless of their results in 12/13.

I'm sure the 76 are just the first batch of clubs to be looked at.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Woops sorry we've qualified for the europa league, but not the champions league, but right now they're looking at clubs that haven't qualified for anything yet, I'd just say clubs that weren't in europe this season are in a later batch of assessments and the papers have put two and two together and got five. Not the first time.

Oh.

Are we playing the rags?
 
They've not gotten there yet ;)
My point was we don't have a top 4 spot mathematically secured yet, but we secured a minimum of europa league on sunday.
 
Chris in London said:
BluessinceHydeRoad said:
Chris in London, yours is quite an interesting post and highlights the fact that some form of regulation per se is perhaps not without some merit. The trouble is that there appears to be no form of regulation which would be seen as “fair”. The demands for regulation have come most persistently from clubs such as Arsenal, who see “fair play” as allowing clubs to “spend only what they earn”. They do not consider any cap on their spending to enable teams such as Norwich or Stoke, or even Aston Villa to compete “fairly” with them, even before we are brought to consider the meaning of “what they earn” (and therefore what they spend) and certainly before we consider the historical origins of this spending power. The following points have to be made about attempts to regulate the finances of football clubs:-

1. they do not occur in a vacuum. Originally they were supposed to deal with the problem of debt, but in their final form they ignore that problem. This means that some clubs are effectively given treatment which is preferential in the extreme. Manchester United are heavily indebted but are allowed to carry this debt: Manchester City are to be subject to draconian penalties if they overspend. Manchester City are to be “protected” just in case their owners “walk away”: the possibility of the Glazers “walking away” is to be considered as “unrealistic”....

2. only one aspect of the balance sheet is to be given any consideration at all. Arsenal can borrow as much as they like to build a bumper new stadium, owners can invest as much as they like on “infrastructure”. The only spending which is controlled is that on players (an asset like a ground!) and wages. This is, of course, intended to make sure that the wealthiest clubs keep their right to all the best players.

3. this is where the historical origin of a club's wealth is interesting. The richest clubs in the world have been most of the time in the recent past, since 1992 at least, Manchester United, Arsenal, Real, Barca, the Milans, Juventus, Bayern Munich. In 2003 they were joined by Chelsea, and later by Manchester City, PSG and Monaco. The latest three hold a privileged position only because of the disgraceful “doping” their owners have carried out. On this forum we know much of this “doping” has actually been investment permitted even under UEFA's new rules, but we also know that the established aristocracy of club football all owe their position to such “doping”: Munich in the early sixties, United several times, most recently 1986 – 1992. Or they have had very wealthy owners ploughing money in: this is the Italian model. Or they have received aid from the state or benefited from questionable property deals. Such “doping” allowed them to enjoy an income which bought success and success which led to impressive growth of other “revenue streams”. UEFA never objected to this and in fact Mr Platini benefited from such arrangements as a player.

4. these “revenue streams” are interesting. They include “commercial activities” and TV money. These are traditional, but have increased enormously over the last 20+ years – funnily enough for clubs who were successful because of their already larger income and expanding stadia! But from the mid -1980s onwards they came to include sponsorship. FFPR will mean that foreign car companies, American investment banks and Bavarian car companies or insurance companies can put more money into a football club through sponsorship than the owner is allowed to! Is this really in the interests of the game or the “integrity” of competitions? Did the sponsors of WBA not seek to influence team selection by withdrawing their sponsorship if one particular player was selected?

5. but these measures are introduced by the game's governing body to maintain competition. This can be proved not to be the case. Uefa is behaving no as a governing body, but as a competing party trying to increase its own share of a market it already dominates. It negotiates TV payments and sponsorship and uses European competitions as the vehicle. And it distributes financial rewards to confer a competitive advantage on certain clubs in other, domestic tournaments. It's FFPR will protect that advantage.

I'd agree with almost all of that.

I think we can all agree that the 'only spend what you earn' approach really does cement in place the current cartel. One of the posts upstream makes the point that a club that qualifies for the knockout stage of the CL every year for three years makes more money than under FFPR you are allowed to spend to try and bridge the gap. So 'spend what you earn plus no more than €15m for three years' just allows the gap to get wider, because your competitors all earned €25m + every year.

On the other hand, at least in principle you can see how carrying losses on an unlimited and indefinite basis until the competition withers and dies is anti-competitive.

What I see however is only an abstract danger of the second happening, and a very very real and present danger of the first happening. City, PSG, Chelsea etc are not blitzing Barca Madrid and Bayern off the park with the wages and transfer fees we are offering. We are competitive, and we require owner-generated subsidy to be competitive, but it is no more than that. We could for instance have offered Isco five times whatever Madrid offered him: we didn't and he went there.

On the other hand, the same group of about 10 clubs have reached the last 16 of the champions league for something like ten years or so, or at worst for nine of the last ten years. When did Arsenal last fail to get through the group stage? Or Barca, or Madrid, or Bayern? How many times have the rags failed to make the knockout stage in the last 10 years? Or Inter?

So you have this elite group which day by day is getting further and further away in financial terms, and you have regulations which in their present form cement that disparity rather than allow for it to be challenged.

I do agree with all of what you say, and the point I want to make about the sentence I've "emboldened" is that City's reducing losses show that this is something City do not intend at all. This is actually what is also forbidden by law, and would be a case of "abusing a dominant position". I feel very strongly that UEFA is actually doing it right now, and seeks to enter into a cartel with other clubs to maintain its own position. I think our lawyers would try to show this and would succeed.
 
One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.
 
grunge said:
One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.
this is back to the point one poster made earlier about them only looking at the "football-related" part of a statement of comprehensive income, which doesn't tell a true picture (e.g. utd's debt). I've just had a quick look at Annex X in the regulations and the only benefit a club will have from this is that they can use the interest earned on any such stockpiles to offset losses.
doesn't fit too well with Platini's declaration that the scums debt levels wouldn't affect their assessment, does it.......
 
aguero93:20 said:
grunge said:
One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.
this is back to the point one poster made earlier about them only looking at the "football-related" part of a statement of comprehensive income, which doesn't tell a true picture (e.g. utd's debt). I've just had a quick look at Annex X in the regulations and the only benefit a club will have from this is that they can use the interest earned on any such stockpiles to offset losses.
doesn't fit too well with Platini's declaration that the scums debt levels wouldn't affect their assessment, does it.......

prehaps sheikh mansour should put a couple of billion in a high interest account for us and we could just live off the interest:)
 
Chris in London said:
BluessinceHydeRoad said:
Chris in London, yours is quite an interesting post and highlights the fact that some form of regulation per se is perhaps not without some merit. The trouble is that there appears to be no form of regulation which would be seen as “fair”. The demands for regulation have come most persistently from clubs such as Arsenal, who see “fair play” as allowing clubs to “spend only what they earn”. They do not consider any cap on their spending to enable teams such as Norwich or Stoke, or even Aston Villa to compete “fairly” with them, even before we are brought to consider the meaning of “what they earn” (and therefore what they spend) and certainly before we consider the historical origins of this spending power. The following points have to be made about attempts to regulate the finances of football clubs:-

1. they do not occur in a vacuum. Originally they were supposed to deal with the problem of debt, but in their final form they ignore that problem. This means that some clubs are effectively given treatment which is preferential in the extreme. Manchester United are heavily indebted but are allowed to carry this debt: Manchester City are to be subject to draconian penalties if they overspend. Manchester City are to be “protected” just in case their owners “walk away”: the possibility of the Glazers “walking away” is to be considered as “unrealistic”....

2. only one aspect of the balance sheet is to be given any consideration at all. Arsenal can borrow as much as they like to build a bumper new stadium, owners can invest as much as they like on “infrastructure”. The only spending which is controlled is that on players (an asset like a ground!) and wages. This is, of course, intended to make sure that the wealthiest clubs keep their right to all the best players.

3. this is where the historical origin of a club's wealth is interesting. The richest clubs in the world have been most of the time in the recent past, since 1992 at least, Manchester United, Arsenal, Real, Barca, the Milans, Juventus, Bayern Munich. In 2003 they were joined by Chelsea, and later by Manchester City, PSG and Monaco. The latest three hold a privileged position only because of the disgraceful “doping” their owners have carried out. On this forum we know much of this “doping” has actually been investment permitted even under UEFA's new rules, but we also know that the established aristocracy of club football all owe their position to such “doping”: Munich in the early sixties, United several times, most recently 1986 – 1992. Or they have had very wealthy owners ploughing money in: this is the Italian model. Or they have received aid from the state or benefited from questionable property deals. Such “doping” allowed them to enjoy an income which bought success and success which led to impressive growth of other “revenue streams”. UEFA never objected to this and in fact Mr Platini benefited from such arrangements as a player.

4. these “revenue streams” are interesting. They include “commercial activities” and TV money. These are traditional, but have increased enormously over the last 20+ years – funnily enough for clubs who were successful because of their already larger income and expanding stadia! But from the mid -1980s onwards they came to include sponsorship. FFPR will mean that foreign car companies, American investment banks and Bavarian car companies or insurance companies can put more money into a football club through sponsorship than the owner is allowed to! Is this really in the interests of the game or the “integrity” of competitions? Did the sponsors of WBA not seek to influence team selection by withdrawing their sponsorship if one particular player was selected?

5. but these measures are introduced by the game's governing body to maintain competition. This can be proved not to be the case. Uefa is behaving no as a governing body, but as a competing party trying to increase its own share of a market it already dominates. It negotiates TV payments and sponsorship and uses European competitions as the vehicle. And it distributes financial rewards to confer a competitive advantage on certain clubs in other, domestic tournaments. It's FFPR will protect that advantage.

I'd agree with almost all of that.

I think we can all agree that the 'only spend what you earn' approach really does cement in place the current cartel. One of the posts upstream makes the point that a club that qualifies for the knockout stage of the CL every year for three years makes more money than under FFPR you are allowed to spend to try and bridge the gap. So 'spend what you earn plus no more than €15m for three years' just allows the gap to get wider, because your competitors all earned €25m + every year.

On the other hand, at least in principle you can see how carrying losses on an unlimited and indefinite basis until the competition withers and dies is anti-competitive.

What I see however is only an abstract danger of the second happening, and a very very real and present danger of the first happening. City, PSG, Chelsea etc are not blitzing Barca Madrid and Bayern off the park with the wages and transfer fees we are offering. We are competitive, and we require owner-generated subsidy to be competitive, but it is no more than that. We could for instance have offered Isco five times whatever Madrid offered him: we didn't and he went there.

On the other hand, the same group of about 10 clubs have reached the last 16 of the champions league for something like ten years or so, or at worst for nine of the last ten years. When did Arsenal last fail to get through the group stage? Or Barca, or Madrid, or Bayern? How many times have the rags failed to make the knockout stage in the last 10 years? Or Inter?

So you have this elite group which day by day is getting further and further away in financial terms, and you have regulations which in their present form cement that disparity rather than allow for it to be challenged.


Surely another point would be that money, especially in football, does not bring, and can never guarantee, continued European success. This is because the vast pool of quality players and managers is always open to a number of teams - even more now with us and PSG dining at the table. In fact, there hasn't been a single team that has defended its Champion League title, and this is directly due to the Champions League being extremely competitive which, in turn, is due to the numbers of quality players available.

Even if I had a trillion pound, I still wouldn't be able to carry on spending until the other 'competition withers and dies' because there is a finite number of players I can buy. In effect, squad size and a player's desire to play would ultimately dictate who could/would play for my team, and this would be the case for many other teams who also have the means to buy into the pool of top/world class players.
 
Uber Blue said:
Chris in London said:
BluessinceHydeRoad said:
Chris in London, yours is quite an interesting post and highlights the fact that some form of regulation per se is perhaps not without some merit. The trouble is that there appears to be no form of regulation which would be seen as “fair”. The demands for regulation have come most persistently from clubs such as Arsenal, who see “fair play” as allowing clubs to “spend only what they earn”. They do not consider any cap on their spending to enable teams such as Norwich or Stoke, or even Aston Villa to compete “fairly” with them, even before we are brought to consider the meaning of “what they earn” (and therefore what they spend) and certainly before we consider the historical origins of this spending power. The following points have to be made about attempts to regulate the finances of football clubs:-

1. they do not occur in a vacuum. Originally they were supposed to deal with the problem of debt, but in their final form they ignore that problem. This means that some clubs are effectively given treatment which is preferential in the extreme. Manchester United are heavily indebted but are allowed to carry this debt: Manchester City are to be subject to draconian penalties if they overspend. Manchester City are to be “protected” just in case their owners “walk away”: the possibility of the Glazers “walking away” is to be considered as “unrealistic”....

2. only one aspect of the balance sheet is to be given any consideration at all. Arsenal can borrow as much as they like to build a bumper new stadium, owners can invest as much as they like on “infrastructure”. The only spending which is controlled is that on players (an asset like a ground!) and wages. This is, of course, intended to make sure that the wealthiest clubs keep their right to all the best players.

3. this is where the historical origin of a club's wealth is interesting. The richest clubs in the world have been most of the time in the recent past, since 1992 at least, Manchester United, Arsenal, Real, Barca, the Milans, Juventus, Bayern Munich. In 2003 they were joined by Chelsea, and later by Manchester City, PSG and Monaco. The latest three hold a privileged position only because of the disgraceful “doping” their owners have carried out. On this forum we know much of this “doping” has actually been investment permitted even under UEFA's new rules, but we also know that the established aristocracy of club football all owe their position to such “doping”: Munich in the early sixties, United several times, most recently 1986 – 1992. Or they have had very wealthy owners ploughing money in: this is the Italian model. Or they have received aid from the state or benefited from questionable property deals. Such “doping” allowed them to enjoy an income which bought success and success which led to impressive growth of other “revenue streams”. UEFA never objected to this and in fact Mr Platini benefited from such arrangements as a player.

4. these “revenue streams” are interesting. They include “commercial activities” and TV money. These are traditional, but have increased enormously over the last 20+ years – funnily enough for clubs who were successful because of their already larger income and expanding stadia! But from the mid -1980s onwards they came to include sponsorship. FFPR will mean that foreign car companies, American investment banks and Bavarian car companies or insurance companies can put more money into a football club through sponsorship than the owner is allowed to! Is this really in the interests of the game or the “integrity” of competitions? Did the sponsors of WBA not seek to influence team selection by withdrawing their sponsorship if one particular player was selected?

5. but these measures are introduced by the game's governing body to maintain competition. This can be proved not to be the case. Uefa is behaving no as a governing body, but as a competing party trying to increase its own share of a market it already dominates. It negotiates TV payments and sponsorship and uses European competitions as the vehicle. And it distributes financial rewards to confer a competitive advantage on certain clubs in other, domestic tournaments. It's FFPR will protect that advantage.

I'd agree with almost all of that.

I think we can all agree that the 'only spend what you earn' approach really does cement in place the current cartel. One of the posts upstream makes the point that a club that qualifies for the knockout stage of the CL every year for three years makes more money than under FFPR you are allowed to spend to try and bridge the gap. So 'spend what you earn plus no more than €15m for three years' just allows the gap to get wider, because your competitors all earned €25m + every year.

On the other hand, at least in principle you can see how carrying losses on an unlimited and indefinite basis until the competition withers and dies is anti-competitive.

What I see however is only an abstract danger of the second happening, and a very very real and present danger of the first happening. City, PSG, Chelsea etc are not blitzing Barca Madrid and Bayern off the park with the wages and transfer fees we are offering. We are competitive, and we require owner-generated subsidy to be competitive, but it is no more than that. We could for instance have offered Isco five times whatever Madrid offered him: we didn't and he went there.

On the other hand, the same group of about 10 clubs have reached the last 16 of the champions league for something like ten years or so, or at worst for nine of the last ten years. When did Arsenal last fail to get through the group stage? Or Barca, or Madrid, or Bayern? How many times have the rags failed to make the knockout stage in the last 10 years? Or Inter?

So you have this elite group which day by day is getting further and further away in financial terms, and you have regulations which in their present form cement that disparity rather than allow for it to be challenged.


Surely another point would be that money, especially in football, does not bring, and can never guarantee, continued European success. This is because the vast pool of quality players and managers is always open to a number of teams - even more now with us and PSG dining at the table. In fact, there hasn't been a single team that has defended its Champion League title, and this is directly due to the Champions League being extremely competitive which, in turn, is due to the numbers of quality players available.

Even if I had a trillion pound, I still wouldn't be able to carry on spending until the other 'competition withers and dies' because there is a finite number of players I can buy. In effect, squad size and a player's desire to play would ultimately dictate who could/would play for my team, and this would be the case for many other teams who also have the means to buy into the pool of top/world class players.

That depends on how you measure success. Measured purely in terms of trophies, you are right. Measured in economic terms - profit and revenue, essentially, the success of the top ten teams or so over the last 10 or so years has been plain for all to see. Arsenal haven't won a thing in donkey's years, but their commercial success is self evident.

There are plenty of examples of European clubs who have shone briefly only to fade away into relative obscurity - Spurs being a good recent example. However there is a hardcore of teams that regularly reach the last 16 of the Champions league and their position has been cemented as more money has come into European football. Who are the teams that have gatecrashed that cosy cartel? Us, PSG and Chelsea and it has taken massive investment in each case. The lesson of the last 10-15 years is that sustained success in Europe can't be done without massive investment. The FFP rules prevent that from happening.

There is indeed fierce competition in Europe amongst a small number of clubs, but only between a small number of clubs. The FFPR protects that small number of clubs in economic terms. Nobody has retained the Champions league, but who has won the champions league in the last 10 years? A small select group consisting of Barca, Rags, Bayern, Real etc.

Just because a small group of clubs is fighting each other like rats in a sack does not mean that there is nothing anti-competitive about it - what is anti-competitive is not the fight in the sack but entry into the sack in the first place.
 
aguero93:20 said:
@blueanorak neither have we qualified, they'll have to analyse all clubs before the qualifiers begin in the summer, as platini said earlier in the season, it's just the newspapers rushing out with articles about things they don't understand e.g. sports journalists writing finance articles. I think.

Well yes, but we did qualify for this seasons competition and that qualification covers the first season of the first monitoring period.
 
grunge said:
One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.
Brilliant post and very valid point.................
 
Chris in London said:
Uber Blue said:
Chris in London said:
I'd agree with almost all of that.

I think we can all agree that the 'only spend what you earn' approach really does cement in place the current cartel. One of the posts upstream makes the point that a club that qualifies for the knockout stage of the CL every year for three years makes more money than under FFPR you are allowed to spend to try and bridge the gap. So 'spend what you earn plus no more than €15m for three years' just allows the gap to get wider, because your competitors all earned €25m + every year.

On the other hand, at least in principle you can see how carrying losses on an unlimited and indefinite basis until the competition withers and dies is anti-competitive.

What I see however is only an abstract danger of the second happening, and a very very real and present danger of the first happening. City, PSG, Chelsea etc are not blitzing Barca Madrid and Bayern off the park with the wages and transfer fees we are offering. We are competitive, and we require owner-generated subsidy to be competitive, but it is no more than that. We could for instance have offered Isco five times whatever Madrid offered him: we didn't and he went there.

On the other hand, the same group of about 10 clubs have reached the last 16 of the champions league for something like ten years or so, or at worst for nine of the last ten years. When did Arsenal last fail to get through the group stage? Or Barca, or Madrid, or Bayern? How many times have the rags failed to make the knockout stage in the last 10 years? Or Inter?

So you have this elite group which day by day is getting further and further away in financial terms, and you have regulations which in their present form cement that disparity rather than allow for it to be challenged.


Surely another point would be that money, especially in football, does not bring, and can never guarantee, continued European success. This is because the vast pool of quality players and managers is always open to a number of teams - even more now with us and PSG dining at the table. In fact, there hasn't been a single team that has defended its Champion League title, and this is directly due to the Champions League being extremely competitive which, in turn, is due to the numbers of quality players available.

Even if I had a trillion pound, I still wouldn't be able to carry on spending until the other 'competition withers and dies' because there is a finite number of players I can buy. In effect, squad size and a player's desire to play would ultimately dictate who could/would play for my team, and this would be the case for many other teams who also have the means to buy into the pool of top/world class players.

That depends on how you measure success. Measured purely in terms of trophies, you are right. Measured in economic terms - profit and revenue, essentially, the success of the top ten teams or so over the last 10 or so years has been plain for all to see. Arsenal haven't won a thing in donkey's years, but their commercial success is self evident.

There are plenty of examples of European clubs who have shone briefly only to fade away into relative obscurity - Spurs being a good recent example. However there is a hardcore of teams that regularly reach the last 16 of the Champions league and their position has been cemented as more money has come into European football. Who are the teams that have gatecrashed that cosy cartel? Us, PSG and Chelsea and it has taken massive investment in each case. The lesson of the last 10-15 years is that sustained success in Europe can't be done without massive investment. The FFP rules prevent that from happening.

There is indeed fierce competition in Europe amongst a small number of clubs, but only between a small number of clubs. The FFPR protects that small number of clubs in economic terms. Nobody has retained the Champions league, but who has won the champions league in the last 10 years? A small select group consisting of Barca, Rags, Bayern, Real etc.

Just because a small group of clubs is fighting each other like rats in a sack does not mean that there is nothing anti-competitive about it - what is anti-competitive is not the fight in the sack but entry into the sack in the first place.


I agree 100% with what you have said and utterly despise the charade masked as the saviour of football that is FFPR. My point was really about the assertion that any one club could dominate in Europe (silverware) due to having seemlessly endless pockets. Chris mentioned that he could perceive it an an abstract way and I do get what he means. Personally, I think it's just another ruse peddalled by UEFA to have a dig at the new money that has struck at the previously stable core of Europe's football bloated aristrocrats.

The Champions League was designed to be anti-competitive and was purpose built to lock in the pigs with their snouts in the money trough. I suppose in 92 the thought of a club like little old City gatecrashing the party was as likely as Madrid and Barcalona getting relagated in the same season.

I can honestly say that one of my greatest pleasures since the takeover has been to watch the arrogant, self-entitled fucktards squirm with the thought that a previous irrelevance has caused them so much fear and confusion.
 
Chris in London said:
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Chris in London said:
*EDIT I suppose another way of testing the current figure is by saying that if you gave Alan Pardew £38m and said 'I want Newcastle in the last 16 of the Champions league in 3 years' he would almost certainly respond by saying 'Well if you do I'll need a shedload more cash than that, you fackin' ald can't.' before sticking the heed on you for asking the question and then pushing you out of the way.
Edited for accuracy.

Further edited for further accuracy.

Further edited for even further accuracy.
 
Some very clever posters on here,FFP hurts my head.

I do worry about Gill and his comments however I thought we have passed FFP when they take into account wages pre 2010??
 
Dribble said:
grunge said:
One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.
Brilliant post and very valid point.................
I've wondered about that too. Suppose the rags really did go on a £200m spending binge to rebuild their squad, then would they too be in danger of breaching these rules?
 

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