City footballing structure

[Shaelumstash]

Is the footballing structure being set up by Txiki and Ferran going to be the most important development of the Sheikh Mansour era?

I've seen this discussed on various different threads, but not noticed one that deals specifically with this subject.

I was just reading the article in the Guardian below which shows how The Shite's model of having an all powerful manager can take years, even decades to recover from. I was startled to read The Shite have only had 3 managers who have won the title with them. City have had 4.

The article shows how long it took them to find the right guy after Busby had finally relinquished control, and explained how a similar thing has been happening to Dynamo Kiev in the last 20 years.

The models that have proven to be the most successful for sustained success under different managers have been Liverpool in the 70s and 80s, Barca in the last 10 years, and Bayern, pretty much forever. The post below is from a seemingly well educated rag in the comments section, which sums it up quite nicely:

"Barcelona and Bayern really aren't like Manchester United or Dynamo at all. They've cracked the Success Code. Basically they have a strong boardroom that knows how the club should play, and they appoint managers and buy or build players accordingly.

Guardiola, Enrique, even Martinez and the guys preceding Pep were all interchangeable cogs. Of course, having Leo Messi is the one main constant, but selling Pedro and Sanchez and buying Suarez and Neymar show that the board know how Barcelona should play.

This is even more true in the case of Bayern. There, the board know that they're in charge. Van Gaal, Heynckes, Pep, and now Ancelotti. The board know what they want. The real powers behind the scenes have been people like Rummenigge, Hopfner, Hoeness and Beckenbauer. And when you fail to meet their standards or get with the program - as van Gaal famously did - you're out. Very fast.

I don't know about Dynamo, but Manchester United famously are not following the blueprint set by Barca and Bayern. Manchester City, however, may be in the process of implementing such a system."

http://www.theguardian.com/football...blem-of-moving-on-from-an-all-powerful-leader

As many have pointed out, the model we are implementing with all of the youth teams learning the play the same way, being brought up playing 433 allows them to be interchangable in to numerous positions. Having a DoF in Txiki who is responsible for recruitment means players are brought in to fit in with the clubs overall style of play, and head coaches are appointed on the basis that they fit in to that style.

It's perhaps been a bit of a false start with Pellegrini as he has a very particular way of playing, and is amiable enough to not cause issues when the man we really want - Pep, became available.

But from Guardiola onwards I think we are uniquely placed in English football to have success for many years to come.

The way he will set the team up, integrate the youth players, even if just in training and tours initially, will be exceptional. The youth players have essentially been training for the last 3 years to be able to easily adapt to Pep's way of playing. The talent is there, and if they are given opportunity at the right time, their transition should be seemless.

I expect Guardiola to stay for 3 years, and I expect it to be a very successful 3 years for the club in terms of trophies. But I think his real impact will be felt in the legacy he leaves behind. I think he's going to set us up in such a way, that it's going to be so easy for the next guy to come in and be successful.

Look at Barca, people say their granny could win the league with that team. Vilanova and Luis Enrique have gone in and had huge success. Could they have done that after Rijkaard? After two trophyless seasons, finishing 15 points adrift? Of course not. It was the blueprint Cruyff laid out for the youth team years before, and Guardiola re-envigorated during his reign.

I hope it all works out as planned and after Guardiola we have Vieira, then Kompany to continue the legacy. It's a long way off, but everything is in place in structural terms for us to go on and be successful for years to come. What a time to be a blue!

 

[whp.blue]

No

 

[Damocles]

Is the footballing structure being set up by Txiki and Ferran going to be the most important development of the Sheikh Mansour era?

Yes, by an absolute country mile.

Let's just look at our friendly neighbours over the road for example. They appointed a man who played United's football in Moyes then didn't back him in the market and sacked him for being shit.

Then they appointed Van Gaal because he has a philosophy, who they DID back in the market for hundreds of millions. All players designed to play the Van Gaal system. Now they're sacking him and appoint Jose Mourinho, a man who couldn't be more diametrically opposed footballing wise to Van Gaal.

Both United and Chelsea have wasted hundreds of millions of pounds on shit, had shocking league positions and changed managers a bunch of times because they had no plan, no style of football and no idea what they were doing from one year to the next.

The implementation of the opposite of that from City is why we'll continue to be successful whilst they flounder.

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

I think the problems with structures is that they are only as good as the people who fill the positions and this means that at times they don't work very well. At both Barcelona and Bayern there have been periods of instability when managers don't stay long and there is a high turnover. Cruyff was Barcelona's longest serving manager and their most successful until Pep but he was/is a difficult cuss and in the end was peremptorily sacked. This was the result of the inevitable politicking which is a feature of clubs owned by their supporters, and Bayern are vulnerable to it as well. Cruyff's truly great contribution was the reorganization of the club's youth programme, but it took 10 years (and Guardiola) to bear fruit. When Sorriano was elected in 2003 he found a club in crisis.

I think it's clear the advantages which City have at the moment. In addition to people who have worked with Pep before we have an owner whose commitment to the club is above question, a chairman who who is respected on the global politico-economic stage and facilities which are second to none but the challenge is to keep this machine well-oiled and to appoint the right people at the right time in the future. United's problem appears to be that they don't really have a structure. They emerged from a period of autocratic rule with no mechanism for future development other than the nomination of an heir by the outgoing autocrat, as though they are a latterday Roman empire! Their task is to create a modern management structure and let it work, but we seem to be getting factional strife within the royal family. No doubt the family man will appear on the steps of the Sir Bobby Charlton stand to receive the acclamation of the public - and deal as best he can with the backstairs intrigue - tu ea Giggsy, et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum (!).

 

[WRicko]

Yes, by an absolute country mile.

Let's just look at our friendly neighbours over the road for example. They appointed a man who played United's football in Moyes then didn't back him in the market and sacked him for being shit.

Then they appointed Van Gaal because he has a philosophy, who they DID back in the market for hundreds of millions. All players designed to play the Van Gaal system. Now they're sacking him and appoint Jose Mourinho, a man who couldn't be more diametrically opposed footballing wise to Van Gaal.

Both United and Chelsea have wasted hundreds of millions of pounds on shit, had shocking league positions and changed managers a bunch of times because they had no plan, no style of football and no idea what they were doing from one year to the next.

The implementation of the opposite of that from City is why we'll continue to be successful whilst they flounder.

I do not see much difference between Van Gaal and Mourinho there philosophy is boring defensive football surely ? Also Moyes and Van Gaal have different philosophies so its not just the difference in backing but difference in philosophies that cause there problems

 

[WRicko]

Its not just the people and the football philosophy but the whole CFG CFM CFS

 

[bugsyblue]

I definitely think the structure is a vital component and I think when we tasted success back in 2012, the structure wasn't properly in place to kick on and dominate from that position. Equally we had FFP to contend with. However I think our next period of success will be much more sustained now that we have the management, academy and financial freedom to really dominate. I do air caution over Pep being an instant success though. I think the first team needs quite a bit of rebuilding and I think we might have to be patient. My prediction is Pep will actually be trophy-less after his first season but go on to win the title back to back the following years. I actually think, however, that our most dominant period will be to the end of his tenure and beyond. I reckon we will win the CL in his final year or the year after under a new manager.

There's still some work to be done at City but once we reach our targets, both on and off the field, I think we will truly dominate for a number of years.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I think the problems with structures is that they are only as good as the people who fill the positions and this means that at times they don't work very well. At both Barcelona and Bayern there have been periods of instability when managers don't stay long and there is a high turnover. Cruyff was Barcelona's longest serving manager and their most successful until Pep but he was/is a difficult cuss and in the end was peremptorily sacked. This was the result of the inevitable politicking which is a feature of clubs owned by their supporters, and Bayern are vulnerable to it as well. Cruyff's truly great contribution was the reorganization of the club's youth programme, but it took 10 years (and Guardiola) to bear fruit. When Sorriano was elected in 2003 he found a club in crisis.

I think it's clear the advantages which City have at the moment. In addition to people who have worked with Pep before we have an owner whose commitment to the club is above question, a chairman who who is respected on the global politico-economic stage and facilities which are second to none but the challenge is to keep this machine well-oiled and to appoint the right people at the right time in the future. United's problem appears to be that they don't really have a structure. They emerged from a period of autocratic rule with no mechanism for future development other than the nomination of an heir by the outgoing autocrat, as though they are a latterday Roman empire! Their task is to create a modern management structure and let it work, but we seem to be getting factional strife within the royal family. No doubt the family man will appear on the steps of the Sir Bobby Charlton stand to receive the acclamation of the public - and deal as best he can with the backstairs intrigue - tu ea Giggsy, et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum (!).

Some great points, as always. I think with any model (whether the United / Roman dictator) model, or the Barca / Bayern / City structure, the success is dependent on getting the right people. Of course you couldn't send Steve Cotterill to manage at the Nou Camp and expect them to win the treble. But for me, the structured approach we are taking means that the risk of getting it wrong is greatly reduced.

As The Shite are finding out, the all powerful dictator as manager only works if you've got the absolute best in the business in that role. Busby was before my time, but Fergurson was clearly the best man in the world for that job over the last 20 odd years. Who else is around now with the personality, drive, knowledge, experience that he had that could go in there and do what Fergurson did? There simply isn't anyone. Perhaps Van Gaal is arrogant enough to try, Mourinho's ego is big enough to think he can. But in practical terms, is it possible for anyone to come in an essentially be the first team coach, Director of Football, press officer, head of academy, head of HR, head video analyst, and god knows what else Fergurson did during his time? I don't think there is.

The job is simply too big, the model is broken. United now look like Newcastle did 10 years ago, on the constant look out for a "messiah" who can come in and change the club from top to bottom and save them. It's just not going to happen. Mourinho is a gun for hire. He may well come in and dominate the media agenda, get everyone talking about United again, upset the FA, opposing managers and maybe win a couple of trophies. But he'll have to completely rip up Van Gaal's squad, buy a load of 29 year olds and then leave a fractured squad in pieces after 3 years, and the whole process will have to start again. Hardly the famous "United way".

Whereas the approach we are taking, we are almost perfectly geared up for Pep to come in. The executive structure, the whole CFA set up to ensure easy transition for the youth team to first team. Guardiola is the perfect man for the job, because essentially the club has been set up in order to be the perfect fit for him to come in. Of course he is the right man.

But where our model will really start to pay off is after Guardiola leaves. The team will have an identity after his 3 years. A strong footballing "philosophy" for want of a better word. Youth players and new signings should be able to slip in and out by that time, without there being much disruption. It will be obvious where we need strengthening, whoever the head coach is will be largely irrelevant from a player recruitment point of view. It will be a fluid transition from one head coach to the next, because as Ferran and Txiki have both said, they will only recruit a manager who fits in to their style of play. Namely, high line, pressing, attacking, technical football.

Over the road they've gone from:
Fergurson - Hard working, attacking team with flying wingers, fast counter attacks and a win at any cost mentality
to
Moyes - Deep lying, defensive, risk averse, solid, long diagonal balls
to
Van Gaal - Slow, patient, possession based, stuctured, old fashioned European, pass teams to death, stick to your position, take no risks
to
Mourinho - Deep lying, physical, defensive, fast counter attacking team, little flair or self expression, hard working.

It's like a masterclass in how not to do succession planning.

Each different manager and different style of play requires completely different types of players. Moyes wanted physical players like Fellaini. Van Gaal wants players who are good on the ball who might not be the fastest or strongest, but keep possession, Blind, Herrera, Darmian, Mata, Rojo, or are young and he can mould them Depay, Martial.

Whereas when Mourinho comes in, how many of them would fit his fast counter attacking physical style? I don't think any of them would. Even Martial who has huge potential, is a little young and raw for Mourinho's taste. You could more likely see Manzukich up front for his team than Martial. The other players are too lightweight, too slow for Mourinho, certainly Blind, Mata, Darmian, Hererra I couldn't see anywhere near a Mouinho side. Or Depay because he's shite. Or Martial because he's too young.

Whereas you look at Barca, whether it was Pep, Villanova, Tata Martino, or Enrique, the style of play stays much the same. The players are bought by the DoF to fit the long term needs of the team. Sanchez and Villa leave, Neymar and Sanchez come in. It's seemless. The same will happen at City after Pep leaves. The next head coach that is brought in will carry on Guardiola's good work. The youth players will already be integrated, the DoF will have long term targets of who to replace and when, and the head coach can get on with the job of preparing the team for the next game.

 

[1961_vintage]

Is the footballing structure being set up by Txiki and Ferran going to be the most important development of the Sheikh Mansour era?

Not going to be. Is. Our intention to create a sustainable, long-term dynastic global football super-power cannot be left to the whims, vagaries and idiosyncrasies of a single individual. Nor will it be - hence the lack of appetite for a Mourinho for example - he is best left to those with limited vision and lack of credible long-term strategic ambition.

 

[BlueMoonz1977]

The answer is a definite and resounding Yes.

A lot of pundits and media have not yet realised or want to admit publicly that they know what is going on at our club. The appointment of Pep is not just to make us stronger domestically and in Europe, there is another strategy being implemented between the lines and that is the one cog that we were missing - the implementation for the whole club to play football in the style that they want.

The club in all honestly are probably looking past Pep's departure as well, that is how far forward thinking I think our club and boardroom is in terms of its football and business philosophy. We have Viera our very own ex-eds manager now gaining more experience in the U.S with New York City, and should be the heir to Pep when he decides to call time. Pep staying for 3 years is the minimum and he may decide to stay longer, the reason I believe for this is that he is going to have a massive input in bringing our club to not the next level, but another level. Pep will be allowed to mould our club in his image, something he has not been allowed to do since Barcelona.

What we will see is not what goes on at every other club, for example when another club changes manager, the new manager will want to bring in his own players so that they fit his style of play. This is a revolving door cycle and has a negative effect in terms of longevity and playing style, because effectively the squad and club go back to square one with every manager appointment.

What we are doing here is building a club that will play in a certain style, the players brought in will be chosen on the basis that they fit that style and can play that way, the manager in charge will be the conductor like an orchestra who implements the tactics and provides details for the team to exploit the opposition weaknesses

It all starts this summer and I agree with the poster above, I am not expecting miracles straight away from Pep because it will take time to implement this philosophy, but it will be a philosophy that lasts way past our lifetime and one hopefully that my sons can grow up and also enjoy and appreciate long after we all have all gone

CTID

 

[Shaelumstash]

Not going to be. Is. Our intention to create a sustainable, long-term dynastic global football super-power cannot be left to the whims, vagaries and idiosyncrasies of a single individual. Nor will it be - hence the lack of appetite for a Mourinho for example - he is best left to those with limited vision and lack of credible long-term strategic ambition.

I agree mate, but the reason I use "going to be" as opposed to "is", is because I don't think we'll bear the fruits of it until the manager after Pep, and the two or three after him.

I think Guardiola is so good that he could come in to any club and help them to win trophies.

The difference with us is that the structure we have put in place means that all of the changes he makes will leave a legacy that will be advantageous to the next manager coming in.

Whereas the way Fergurson ran The Shite like a dictatorship, the reverse is true. His legacy is making it harder for the next guy to come in and succeed.

 

[1961_vintage]

I agree mate, but the reason I use "going to be" as opposed to "is", is because I don't think we'll bear the fruits of it until the manager after Pep, and the two or three after him.

I think Guardiola is so good that he could come in to any club and help them to win trophies.

The difference with us is that the structure we have put in place means that all of the changes he makes will leave a legacy that will be advantageous to the next manager coming in.

Whereas the way Fergurson ran The Shite like a dictatorship, the reverse is true. His legacy is making it harder for the next guy to come in and succeed.

Couldn't agree more. And sorry great post by the way, what is happening at City draws on so many parallels with the start of PG's rein @ Barca and is worthy of shared opinions and insights. For me what is clear is that without question we are a clear continuation of the amazing work of Johan Cruyff. That is incredible.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Couldn't agree more. And sorry great post by the way, what is happening at City draws on so many parallels with the start of PG's rein @ Barca and is worthy of shared opinions and insights. For me what is clear is that without question we are a clear continuation of the amazing work of Johan Cruyff. That is incredible.

....and Cruyff was a continuation of Rinus Michels, incredible to think. I'd love it if we had someone in the playing squad who could continue that legacy. Kompany has certainly got the intelligence, the presence and drive to be a top manager. What a dream it would be if our managerial succession went Guardiola > Vieira > Kompany.