City launch legal action against the Premier League | City win APT case (pg901)

meltonblue said:
The Portsmouth reference was around the implementation of PSR in the first place wasn’t it, rather than around APTs? Or are you saying that in terms of how much the underlying motivations behind some of the PSR rules had changed?

Or is it they’re referring to Portsmouth when they talk about “misplaced references to one administrative procedure of one PL club 14 years ago”?
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I assumed the one administrative procedure was something we don't know about Etihad I. The timing is just too coincidental.

As @Chris in London and I agree on everything now, I can presume to answer for him. I think he is saying using Portsmouth as a justification for FFP/PSR while allowing the very mechanism that did for them, soft loans, unfettered in APT (and FFP/PSR btw) can be seen to be contradictory. Hypocritical, even.

(Waiting to be blasted .....). :)
 
halfcenturyup said:
I assumed the one administrative procedure was something we don't know about Etihad I. The timing is just too coincidental.

As @Chris in London and I agree on everything now, I can presume to answer for him. I think he is saying using Portsmouth as a justification for FFP/PSR while allowing the very mechanism that did for them, soft loans, unfettered in APT (and FFP/PSR btw) can be seen to be contradictory. Hypocritical, even.

(Waiting to be blasted .....). :)
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Yes that’s what I’m assuming too, just wanted to check :)
 
mr t said:
I am a bit confused regarding the meaning of turning loans into equity.

Are all these 14 clubs that currently have shareholder loans struggling financially hence they have taken these shareholder loans which if they were to repay would tip them into a deeper financial crisis hence the club just gives the shareholders more shares in the club and holds onto the cash that was originally loaned to them?
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Loans are just part of the funding strategy of a club by the owner. Mansour put funding in as 100% but he has mucho dineiro. Some owners may prefer to loan money so it can be repaid easily if the club is in a position to do so. Some owners may prefer loans for tax reasons - favourable tax treatment for interest income compared to dividends, for example.

If an owner considers he can increase equity and reduce loans, he can convert some of the loans to equity (new shares) without putting more cash in (the cash was received when the loan was made). It is just a book-keeping entry, apart from some documentation and some minor associated costs.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Not even sure if the fourth one is a lawyer. I’d say he’s almost certainly not a practising one. I’m always wary of academics talking about the implications of determinations because they don’t have a feel for things like those at the coal face do. Only a lived experience can give you that instinct.
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Have checked his LinkedIn and whilst very impressive academically he has no vocational qualifications and thereby has never practised as a lawyer.

I wouldn’t discount his views, but I wouldn’t give them as much weight as those who practise. Greater academic powers do not necessarily equate to better judgement.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Have checked his LinkedIn and whilst very impressive academically he has no vocational qualifications and thereby has never practised as a lawyer.

I wouldn’t discount his views, but I wouldn’t give them as much weight as those who practise. Greater academic powers does not necessarily equate to better judgement.
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Those who can .....
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Have checked his LinkedIn and whilst very impressive academically he has no vocational qualifications and thereby has never practised as a lawyer.

I wouldn’t discount his views, but I wouldn’t give them as much weight as those who practise. Greater academic powers do not necessarily equate to better judgement.
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Can he do it on a cold wet day in Birmingham at the Small Claims Court?
 
halfcenturyup said:
Those who can .....
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I think that’s slightly unfair in respect of him, because looking at his qualifications and current calling he’s clearly highly academic and so is presumably doing what he does professionally out of choice, not because he couldn’t cut it in practice.

I guess if you are a legal geek then being a law/jurisprudence lecturer at Oxford is pretty close to nirvana! I also expect he’s a right boring ****!

But I’d be wary about his views on the implications of this or any other judgment as his basis for evaluating such things is essentially theoretical, which means his sense of judging these things isn’t as fully developed as those who operate in the field.
 
slbsn said:
They don’t understand that such loans are basically equity anyway. Everton’s shareholder loans are actually treated as equity in their accounts under FRS102.22. The owners can achieve most of the aims of shareholder loans (like added security) with slithers of loans. And this was the explanation from one lawyer in the Athletic. He doesn’t get it because even his number is highly misleading.View attachment 134985
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I think the point you make has been missed by so many commentators .

Namely that these loans are sums that for the vast majority of owners have chosen to leave on the books because of advantages be it to them or indeed the club and if their is a PSR advantage that’s great
I very much doubt that any PL club owner sees their cash input into a club as a sort term investment so when putting the money in converting into equity won’t be that much of an issue and way above my pay grade I believe it is possible for a company to buy back shares from shareholders at cost without any significant tax issues
My point is that the author of that Athletic article is making the assumption that these loans will remain in the accounts as loans when I am pretty sure that that will not be the case
 
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