Coronavirus (2021) thread

[shemnel]

I am sorry but that is a crock of shit.

If working class white men were refusing the vaccine everyone would be saying how ignorant they are.

If you have a link to this “years of unethical healthcare research”, whatever that even means, I’ll read it but whoever is refusing this vaccine is a dick head in my opinion, unless you’ve got a history of severe allergic reactions to vaccination.

And that’s whatever colour or background you are.

hiya, sorry i had a mammoth day at work all day yesterday and then i didnt have the stomach for the internet in the evening.

I think everyone should be taking up the vaccine yes, within the bounds of health restrictions, but i can understand some hesitancy from some groups.

I just want to put out some thoughts about BAME hesitancy and you can ignore em or read them or whatever you like i suppose. Much of the hesitancy derives from the long mistrust of British institutions, mixed in with toxic social media and racism in the NHS.

The latter is a well studied phenomena, medical racism, that sadly exists in the UK. I wont post much here as it's easy to google but to say that this issue does drive mistrust for anything the NHS/govt tells you you should do.

The BMJ Interview: Victor Adebowale on systemic racism in the NHS

The NHS Confederation chair talks to Gareth Iacobucci about the importance of recognising and tackling inequalities “The fact of the matter is that this is a systemic issue, as awkward as that might be for some people to hear,” says Victor Adebowale. “That’s the evidence. It can be changed, but...

www.bmj.com

Revealed: The Shocking Healthcare Racism Endangering Black Mothers

Black women recall discrimination, microaggressions and substandard care during pregnancy in a new survey.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

The two reasons i would take next in equal measure are historic legacy issues and social media. Historic incidents such as Tuskeegee and other botched medical trials, not to mention the outright cruel ones of the 1800s are, current or not, relevant. I appreciate some of these are American, some are conducted in Africa, but they're relevant. It sows the seeds for mistrust at the community level sadly, and obviously while we have moved on massively, the problems of my first point allow that ancient mistrust to linger.

Social media effects us all, and when these issues are already present, the effect on that community is disproportionate. Why these people choose to drive wedges in society via social media is beyond me.

Anti-vaxxers are weaponising the vaccine hesitancy of Black communities

Black people have understandable concerns about vaccines due to a history of racism.

theconversation.com

My last reason is the idea of "why us why now?". As recently as 2009 (?) the Pandemrix trials were an example of a rushed vaccine that had bad effects and if you've suffered from unequal goes at life in society for decades, and the gov in 2020 suggests BAME communities be put forward for vaccination first due to their disease burden, your alarm bells might ring. That suggestion, i believe, came from the right place but it's not hard to see why many BAME community members suddenly felt antsy about being given first go with a vaccine that was perceived by some to be more 'experimental'. Throw in your toxic social media to this and the problem keeps snowballing.

Anecdotally, my wife's family are BAME and well educated, some work for NHS and so on, and there were an unusually high amount of hesitant texts on her family whatsapp before Christmas. Only one was anti-vaxx, but many were hesitant. These are predominantly down to the reasons above, it was fascinating to see their reasoning and debates around things my life has never been subjected to. Nearly all have come round now, i'm glad to say.

These things all add up. Hope i didnt bore you with my ramble, back off to work, have a good one.

Other stuff;
UK Gov report into factors;

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/952716/s0979-factors-influencing-vaccine-uptake-minority-ethnic-groups.pdf

It’s Harder For Black And Asian People To Trust The Covid Vaccine. Here’s What Needs To Happen

Vaccine distrust and Covid could spell double tragedy for minority groups.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Exclusive: Fewer black and Filipino NHS staff vaccinated amid ‘hesitancy’ concern

The largest hospital trust in England has reported substantially lower covid vaccine uptake among its black African, black Caribbean and Filipino staff so far, citing 'vaccine hesitancy'.

www.hsj.co.uk

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Yes

Just look at the dicks on here posting that the lockdown should be relaxing now, that are booking holidays for late spring, who seem to think the only thing that matters in their little world is getting pubs open.
Only 60,000 people have so far been vaccinated ie had BOTH jabs.
You yourself seem to think that the govt knows how this is going to pan out in the next two months. They don’t. They can only react to events not try to predict what will happen.

 

[Tonster]

Just look at the dicks on here posting that the lockdown should be relaxing now, that are booking holidays for late spring, who seem to think the only thing that matters in their little world is getting pubs open.
Only 60,000 people have so far been vaccinated ie had BOTH jabs.
You yourself seem to think that the govt knows how this is going to pan out in the next two months. They don’t. They can only react to events not try to predict what will happen.

It’s 540,000 not 60,000

 

[blueparrot]

Just look at the dicks on here posting that the lockdown should be relaxing now, that are booking holidays for late spring, who seem to think the only thing that matters in their little world is getting pubs open.
Only 60,000 people have so far been vaccinated ie had BOTH jabs.
You yourself seem to think that the govt knows how this is going to pan out in the next two months. They don’t. They can only react to events not try to predict what will happen.

Don’t think anybody has said they have booked anything for late spring. Hardly any have said relax lockdown now, a few have said May, and I think some relaxation will start during March, minimal but some.

 

[Bluemoon dan]

what concerns me marvin is the knock on effect this will have on domestic council tax, 'the money has to come from somewhere' were in wyre and thats going up another 3% on top of last years hike which was for social care

What's really depressing is that when Councils do start looking for savings it's going to be the vulnerable groups that cop it again when it comes to the cuts. This story from the Evening News about the defecit that Oldham Council have and the first places they are looking to save money will be being repeated up and down the country right now and read through the list of things that they are looking to cut and it's all the things that have basically kept people going in the past 12 months.

Cuts proposed in Oldham including axing funding for charities

A public consultation on the budget proposals has been launched

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[mosssideblue]

Jab day today. :)

 

[Ban-jani]

hiya, sorry i had a mammoth day at work all day yesterday and then i didnt have the stomach for the internet in the evening.

I think everyone should be taking up the vaccine yes, within the bounds of health restrictions, but i can understand some hesitancy from some groups.

I just want to put out some thoughts about BAME hesitancy and you can ignore em or read them or whatever you like i suppose. Much of the hesitancy derives from the long mistrust of British institutions, mixed in with toxic social media and racism in the NHS.

The latter is a well studied phenomena, medical racism, that sadly exists in the UK. I wont post much here as it's easy to google but to say that this issue does drive mistrust for anything the NHS/govt tells you you should do.

The BMJ Interview: Victor Adebowale on systemic racism in the NHS

The NHS Confederation chair talks to Gareth Iacobucci about the importance of recognising and tackling inequalities “The fact of the matter is that this is a systemic issue, as awkward as that might be for some people to hear,” says Victor Adebowale. “That’s the evidence. It can be changed, but...

www.bmj.com

Revealed: The Shocking Healthcare Racism Endangering Black Mothers

Black women recall discrimination, microaggressions and substandard care during pregnancy in a new survey.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

The two reasons i would take next in equal measure are historic legacy issues and social media. Historic incidents such as Tuskeegee and other botched medical trials, not to mention the outright cruel ones of the 1800s are, current or not, relevant. I appreciate some of these are American, some are conducted in Africa, but they're relevant. It sows the seeds for mistrust at the community level sadly, and obviously while we have moved on massively, the problems of my first point allow that ancient mistrust to linger.

Social media effects us all, and when these issues are already present, the effect on that community is disproportionate. Why these people choose to drive wedges in society via social media is beyond me.

Anti-vaxxers are weaponising the vaccine hesitancy of Black communities

Black people have understandable concerns about vaccines due to a history of racism.

theconversation.com

My last reason is the idea of "why us why now?". As recently as 2009 (?) the Pandemrix trials were an example of a rushed vaccine that had bad effects and if you've suffered from unequal goes at life in society for decades, and the gov in 2020 suggests BAME communities be put forward for vaccination first due to their disease burden, your alarm bells might ring. That suggestion, i believe, came from the right place but it's not hard to see why many BAME community members suddenly felt antsy about being given first go with a vaccine that was perceived by some to be more 'experimental'. Throw in your toxic social media to this and the problem keeps snowballing.

Anecdotally, my wife's family are BAME and well educated, some work for NHS and so on, and there were an unusually high amount of hesitant texts on her family whatsapp before Christmas. Only one was anti-vaxx, but many were hesitant. These are predominantly down to the reasons above, it was fascinating to see their reasoning and debates around things my life has never been subjected to. Nearly all have come round now, i'm glad to say.

These things all add up. Hope i didnt bore you with my ramble, back off to work, have a good one.

Other stuff;
UK Gov report into factors;

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/952716/s0979-factors-influencing-vaccine-uptake-minority-ethnic-groups.pdf

It’s Harder For Black And Asian People To Trust The Covid Vaccine. Here’s What Needs To Happen

Vaccine distrust and Covid could spell double tragedy for minority groups.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Exclusive: Fewer black and Filipino NHS staff vaccinated amid ‘hesitancy’ concern

The largest hospital trust in England has reported substantially lower covid vaccine uptake among its black African, black Caribbean and Filipino staff so far, citing 'vaccine hesitancy'.

www.hsj.co.uk

First of all, the BAME term is poor, why are we just lumping everyone who isn’t white into one category? Your in-laws deserve to be described more accurately that ‘non-whites’, which is what it effectively is.

Then I’ve read each link you’ve just posted. The first one only has an introduction and then it’s behind a paywall/you have to sign up. It’s one man’s experience in the past, or it seems to be and what is on there shows no statistics. Maybe it does after the paywall but there’s nothing convincing in his opening remarks.

Huffinpost aren’t a publication I have any respect nor confidence in. They are a small left wing website, who push this kind of narrative without evidence all the time. They link through to ITV who say more black women die pregnant than white, in the UK and Ireland. Nobody was claiming Ireland was/is a racist country with an institutionally racist health service and ITV state the reason for it is unclear and could perhaps be a mixture of reasons - hardly conclusive.

So essentially it’s a mismatch of individual opinions, most of it very historical and the current stuff is lacking any sort of conclusive evidence and this is being pushed to justify them not taking a vaccine that will save them and their fellow citizens’ lives.

The problem here seems to me it’s the identity politics crowd and those claiming institutional racism at every possible point, that are putting off black and Asian people from trust doctors and nurses, who in the main, are the most trustworthy and selfless people we have in society.

This demonising of the NHS is out of order.

 

[shemnel]

First of all, the BAME term is poor, why are we just lumping everyone who isn’t white into one category? Your in-laws deserve to be described more accurately that ‘non-whites’, which is what it effectively is.

Then I’ve read each link you’ve just posted. The first one only has an introduction and then it’s behind a paywall/you have to sign up. It’s one man’s experience in the past, or it seems to be and what is on there shows no statistics. Maybe it does after the paywall but there’s nothing convincing in his opening remarks.

Huffinpost aren’t a publication I have any respect nor confidence in. They are a small left wing website, who push this kind of narrative without evidence all the time. They link through to ITV who say more black women die pregnant than white, in the UK and Ireland. Nobody was claiming Ireland was/is a racist country with an institutionally racist health service and ITV state the reason for it is unclear and could perhaps be a mixture of reasons - hardly conclusive.

So essentially it’s a mismatch of individual opinions, most of it very historical and the current stuff is lacking any sort of conclusive evidence and this is being pushed to justify them not taking a vaccine that will save them and their fellow citizens’ lives.

The problem here seems to me it’s the identity politics crowd and those claiming institutional racism at every possible point, that are putting off black and Asian people from trust doctors and nurses, who in the main, are the most trustworthy and selfless people we have in society.

This demonising of the NHS is out of order.

i think we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Just look at the dicks on here posting that the lockdown should be relaxing now, that are booking holidays for late spring, who seem to think the only thing that matters in their little world is getting pubs open.
Only 60,000 people have so far been vaccinated ie had BOTH jabs.
You yourself seem to think that the govt knows how this is going to pan out in the next two months. They don’t. They can only react to events not try to predict what will happen.

And this is the very nature of life in a pandemic. No one could foresee how it would develop, how it would affect the economy, how it would bear down on a lot of people. But as soon as there is a government 'reaction' it's labelled by many as too late, too early, unnecessary, too much by people who have no more of a clue what to do than the people elected to do it! I think I have not had a nigh on twelve-month period where I've either laughed or shaken my head at some of the stuff spewing out of the news/current affairs!

 

[feelymcfeel]

i think we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

To be fair mate, as much as there may be real reasons why these communities are sceptical of vaccinations or indeed any governmental advice, anecdotal evidence is not evidence.