Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[Skashion]

The positivity is refreshing. There are certainly grounds for cautious optimism. Attacking wise we're doing very well, and the best in the league. Negredo is looking like forming an impressive partnership with Aguero and has been a brilliant signing. However, as Pellegrini acknowledged, we keep dropping points from stupid errors, and when errors are as frequent as they have been I'm not as convinced as others are that it is self-remedying and we needn't do anything about it. Is this the first time we've conceded a late goal because there is too much space between defence and the keeper, no, it certainly isn't. I count at least four instances this season of the opposition getting in behind our defence and having a one on one or empty net, and once in pre-season, three of which resulted in goals and one which looked nailed on by went just wide of the post versus Hull, and I'm probably forgetting some. Is it the first time our central pairing has been left isolated due to using wing-backs? Nope. Also I really can't understand the logic of playing Clichy in that style of play. Either pick Clichy and let him stay back or pick Kolarov and let him go forward. Pushing Clichy forward is a shit half way house and leaves us exposed at the back with no remuneration up front. So I'd propose, certainly when we're in front, as at Cardiff, or on the verge of a good point like at Chelsea, being a bit more cautious in defence. Generally, play a lower line and be more cautious when in a winning position, and for certain games i.e. away at top six sides, play Clichy and keep him back or at least have the balls to play Kolarov and let him go forward.

The reasoning is sound, it is also inescapable. The only team in the Premier League era that has won a title whilst conceding anywhere near 1.22 goals per game, was the rags in 1999-2000. However, that was a bit of an anomaly. They had one terrible month in which they conceded 12 goals in just four games. The rest of the time they were on a title-winning level of defence of a goal a game. That's what we have to do as well. We must concede fewer goals.

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

Yep a good post I agree. However - for the sake of debate here is an alternative viewpoint:


See points made above.

Hart was already a duck egg before Pellegrini came along, or have you forgotten Mancini's public criticism of him? Plus, what exactly did our defence focused set up win us last year? Chuff all. I don't think Pellegrini's philosophy is necessarily flawed, but rather we don't have good enough defenders at present to make it work consistently. I would happily off load Clichy and Lescott if I thought better options were available, whilst Nastasic without Kompany to guide him is an error strewn mess at the moment.
And just as an addendum, to what do you think Liverpool owe their sudden propulsion up the table? Suarez and Sturridge or Skrtel and Agger?

Whilst I agree with all your sentiments, and I certainly think another centre half would be great, I'm convinced clichy just needs to play himself back into form. I suspect demichelis will be a good enough deputy for vinny in the short term so for me I'd be happy to agree with your other proposition if a world class left sided centre half came available.

Clichy's a concern to me. Excellent when we won the title, but he hasn't made the most of his ability since then IMO. Always seems reluctant to bomb on into space and put a cross in, preferring instead to check back with a resultant loss in momentum. I also can't work out how someone with so much supposed pace, gets bummed on the outside so often. For Torres, read Calum McManaman. He has the ability, because we've seen it, but it speaks volumes for his loss of form that Kolarov, whose defensive efforts are usually oafish at best, is back in contention as the club's no.1 left back. I'd take Baines or Shaw over either of them any day of the week.
Lescott, much as I think he's good for morale, just doesn't have the technique I think Pellegrini's looking for in his centre halves, hence the selection of Garcia ahead of him, even though the latter is an accident waiting to happen in a back 4 that defends as high up the pitch as we do. Come the summer, I'd be on the hunt for at least 1, if not 2, quality centre halves, and a left back. I wonder if we'll be hamstrung though into looking at English players only, courtesy of the 8 homegrowners rule, which I think we're right on the limit of?

 

[Esteban de la Sexface]

He needs to stand by his convictions and not let criticism dictate the team he picks. He started with 2 up top against Bayern Munich and we got dicked (Beckkenbaur stated it was the best Bayern performance in a decade). Best team in Europe, he had a go, fair play. But he got slated in the media for that and I think that had a bearing on his team selection Sunday.

Sunday we played a Chelsea team with a CB pairing of an old John Terry and Gary Cahill, If Pellegrini stuck by his convictions and started his best partnership up top, instead of changing system and showing Chelsea way to much respect, I think we could have came away with 3 points instead of the 1 he went for.

 

[crystal_mais]

Yep a good post I agree. However - for the sake of debate here is an alternative viewpoint:

I feel MP is doing well so far. Reasons being

1. We've played some very very high quality stuff going forward.
We have played very high quality stuff for a few years now - the first half of the title winning season being one period of note.

2. Top scorers in the division
We were top scorers in the Division when we won the title AND had the least goals conceded - they are not mutally exclusive.

3. Al but qualified from the CL group
The easiest group we will ever have to qualify from - without a doubt.

4. He seems to have turned Garcia, nasri and kolarov into better players.
Joe & Nasty have turned into complete duck eggs under his stewardship.

5. He is excellent at the media side of it. Doesn't get sucked in like RM always did. Doesn't 'blame' or scapegoat players in public. Doesn't given the sharks any sniff of blood.
Given - no argument or discussion on this one. A major improvement.

Yes we've dropped 7 really silly points but none of those could be directly attributed to MP. They were all either individual and/or team mistakes.
Far to many and to frequent defensive errors to put down to 'individual errors' There is something collectively wrong with our defence these days.

I think it's clear he believes in scoring being more important than clean sheets. I agree with his philosophy as 38 clean sheets would get us fuck all if they were all 0-0 draws. Goals win prizes not clean sheets.
Ask Kevin Keegan if this philosophy will win you trophies?

As we've had the best defensive record for 3 years now this re-prioritisation is something we as fans will simply have to adjust to.
During that time we collected major silverware. All great teams are built on a foundation of a rock solid defence.

When utd lost out to us on GD did they go mental and buy better defenders? Did they fuck they went out and bought more goals. It worked .
We won the title on GD BECAUSE we had conceded the LEAST number of goals!!!

Goals win prizes and our bizarre individual mistakes won't continue forever.

See points made above.

Practically every point you make refers to the 2011-12 title winning season. Those days had already gone and were well behind us before this manager took charge. You seem to have developed a convenient mental block about last season when we didn't score anything like enough goals, couldn't break down defensive teams and lost practically every key game. That's what he inherited.

Also to add - I would break it down from the semi final vs RAGs in FA cup upto end of November the title winning season. Some of the football played was unbelievable - since then we have played well in patches. All in the stats if someone wants to have a look.

I also believe that 1st Champs League group was one we should have got through. Napoli were good but should have been beatable. Last season was tough but we should have got 3rd.

Joes form has been in the wane since Mancini publicly started having a crack at him.

This defence needs to stop making errors I agree but it's going to be goals that will win games.<br /><br />-- Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:50 am --<br /><br />

Hart was already a duck egg before Pellegrini came along, or have you forgotten Mancini's public criticism of him? Plus, what exactly did our defence focused set up win us last year? Chuff all. I don't think Pellegrini's philosophy is necessarily flawed, but rather we don't have good enough defenders at present to make it work consistently. I would happily off load Clichy and Lescott if I thought better options were available, whilst Nastasic without Kompany to guide him is an error strewn mess at the moment.
And just as an addendum, to what do you think Liverpool owe their sudden propulsion up the table? Suarez and Sturridge or Skrtel and Agger?

Whilst I agree with all your sentiments, and I certainly think another centre half would be great, I'm convinced clichy just needs to play himself back into form. I suspect demichelis will be a good enough deputy for vinny in the short term so for me I'd be happy to agree with your other proposition if a world class left sided centre half came available.

Clichy's a concern to me. Excellent when we won the title, but he hasn't made the most of his ability since then IMO. Always seems reluctant to bomb on into space and put a cross in, preferring instead to check back with a resultant loss in momentum. I also can't work out how someone with so much supposed pace, gets bummed on the outside so often. For Torres, read Calum McManaman. He has the ability, because we've seen it, but it speaks volumes for his loss of form that Kolarov, whose defensive efforts are usually oafish at best, is back in contention as the club's no.1 left back. I'd take Baines or Shaw over either of them any day of the week.
Lescott, much as I think he's good for morale, just doesn't have the technique I think Pellegrini's looking for in his centre halves, hence the selection of Garcia ahead of him, even though the latter is an accident waiting to happen in a back 4 that defends as high up the pitch as we do. Come the summer, I'd be on the hunt for at least 1, if not 2, quality centre halves, and a left back. I wonder if we'll be hamstrung though into looking at English players only, courtesy of the 8 homegrowners rule, which I think we're right on the limit of?

I personally think we made a rick in not buying Cahill when he was available last season

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

Many, if not most, supporters were prepared to give Pellegrini "time", but the situation is now beginning to cause concern. The mantra was that after ten games the class would show, and City would be up there with Chelsea. On Sky they still maintained that these were the two best teams in the PL. But City are not "up there",we are actually back in seventh, and this is nowhere near what was expected after 9 games.

We have given some good performances, it's hard to say we haven't played very well at times and the new signings have looked good and are getting better, but not only have we not won enough matches, we have lost too many. If draws were the curse of last season... And there's no sign any of our problems are getting any better. We can say that we lost to Chelsea, a top team with a top manager, and that few teams will leave SB unbeaten. We can say it was a stupid error that cost us a point, but this does not change the fact that we lost a match should at least have drawn. Champions "win ugly": we are losing while playing well! And not for the first time. And the manner of the defeat is becoming depressingly familiar. On Sunday a hacked clearance straight down the middle provoked an act of madness from Joe Hart. Against Villa a punt down the middle provoked incompetence from Vinnie and Nastasic and madness from Joe. In Moscow a long high ball caused panic and incompetence, Joe charged out and Tosic scored with a lob! In Cardiff any high ball into our box caused trouble and a lad 5' 8" tall scored with two headers. Fairly poor crosses brought Chelsea three wasted chances on Sunday, as our back four stood arms in air Arsenal style appealing for an offside that never was. We can analyse every game we have played this season and say that our defence is poor. "Pellegrini let down by his players" is the claim. Yes, but which player in our defence has not let him down? And more than once? And why do all five look pale shadows of the players they were last season? They look as though they don't trust each other, and they don't know what the others are doing or what the others should be doing. They are a disorganised rabble at times. Some of that is because we haven't had a settled back four. Only in part is this due to injury. At times it is down to the manager's choice. But whoever plays there is a lack of organisation which is down to a lack of adequate coaching, and a failure to get across to the players what they are expected to do. Even Vinnie has looked uncertain and plain poor at times this season.

It is no good consoling ourselves that we play attractive football and score goals. Those are not the ambitions of a manager of the most expensive squad in the Pl. He has to do that of course - but he has to beat the Cardiffs and Villas of this world, and not see draws at Chelsea thrown away.

 

[prestonibbo_mcfc]

He needs to stand by his convictions and not let criticism dictate the team he picks. He started with 2 up top against Bayern Munich and we got dicked (Beckkenbaur stated it was the best Bayern performance in a decade). Best team in Europe, he had a go, fair play. But he got slated in the media for that and I think that had a bearing on his team selection Sunday.

Sunday we played a Chelsea team with a CB pairing of an old John Terry and Gary Cahill, If Pellegrini stuck by his convictions and started his best partnership up top, instead of changing system and showing Chelsea way to much respect, I think we could have came away with 3 points instead of the 1 he went for.

Spot on. Negredo in the 85th minute. What was that all about. Should have changed it on the hour IMO.<br /><br />-- Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:06 am --<br /><br />

Many, if not most, supporters were prepared to give Pellegrini "time", but the situation is now beginning to cause concern. The mantra was that after ten games the class would show, and City would be up there with Chelsea. On Sky they still maintained that these were the two best teams in the PL. But City are not "up there",we are actually back in seventh, and this is nowhere near what was expected after 9 games.

We have given some good performances, it's hard to say we haven't played very well at times and the new signings have looked good and are getting better, but not only have we not won enough matches, we have lost too many. If draws were the curse of last season... And there's no sign any of our problems are getting any better. We can say that we lost to Chelsea, a top team with a top manager, and that few teams will leave SB unbeaten. We can say it was a stupid error that cost us a point, but this does not change the fact that we lost a match should at least have drawn. Champions "win ugly": we are losing while playing well! And not for the first time. And the manner of the defeat is becoming depressingly familiar. On Sunday a hacked clearance straight down the middle provoked an act of madness from Joe Hart. Against Villa a punt down the middle provoked incompetence from Vinnie and Nastasic and madness from Joe. In Moscow a long high ball caused panic and incompetence, Joe charged out and Tosic scored with a lob! In Cardiff any high ball into our box caused trouble and a lad 5' 8" tall scored with two headers. Fairly poor crosses brought Chelsea three wasted chances on Sunday, as our back four stood arms in air Arsenal style appealing for an offside that never was. We can analyse every game we have played this season and say that our defence is poor. "Pellegrini let down by his players" is the claim. Yes, but which player in our defence has not let him down? And more than once? And why do all five look pale shadows of the players they were last season? They look as though they don't trust each other, and they don't know what the others are doing or what the others should be doing. They are a disorganised rabble at times. Some of that is because we haven't had a settled back four. Only in part is this due to injury. At times it is down to the manager's choice. But whoever plays there is a lack of organisation which is down to a lack of adequate coaching, and a failure to get across to the players what they are expected to do. Even Vinnie has looked uncertain and plain poor at times this season.

It is no good consoling ourselves that we play attractive football and score goals. Those are not the ambitions of a manager of the most expensive squad in the Pl. He has to do that of course - but he has to beat the Cardiffs and Villas of this world, and not see draws at Chelsea thrown away.

Sorry, but we are only 6 points off Arsenal and 4 off of Chelsea with 29 to play. Our position at the moment isn't a worry.
Granted our defending is.

 

[moomba]

Yep a good post I agree. However - for the sake of debate here is an alternative viewpoint:


See points made above.

Practically every point you make refers to the 2011-12 title winning season. Those days had already gone and were well behind us before this manager took charge. You seem to have developed a convenient mental block about last season when we didn't score anything like enough goals, couldn't break down defensive teams and lost practically every key game. That's what he inherited.

Also to add - I would break it down from the semi final vs RAGs in FA cup upto end of November the title winning season. Some of the football played was unbelievable - since then we have played well in patches. All in the stats if someone wants to have a look.

I also believe that 1st Champs League group was one we should have got through. Napoli were good but should have been beatable. Last season was tough but we should have got 3rd.

Joes form has been in the wane since Mancini publicly started having a crack at him.

This defence needs to stop making errors I agree but it's going to be goals that will win games.

-- Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:50 am --

Whilst I agree with all your sentiments, and I certainly think another centre half would be great, I'm convinced clichy just needs to play himself back into form. I suspect demichelis will be a good enough deputy for vinny in the short term so for me I'd be happy to agree with your other proposition if a world class left sided centre half came available.

Clichy's a concern to me. Excellent when we won the title, but he hasn't made the most of his ability since then IMO. Always seems reluctant to bomb on into space and put a cross in, preferring instead to check back with a resultant loss in momentum. I also can't work out how someone with so much supposed pace, gets bummed on the outside so often. For Torres, read Calum McManaman. He has the ability, because we've seen it, but it speaks volumes for his loss of form that Kolarov, whose defensive efforts are usually oafish at best, is back in contention as the club's no.1 left back. I'd take Baines or Shaw over either of them any day of the week.
Lescott, much as I think he's good for morale, just doesn't have the technique I think Pellegrini's looking for in his centre halves, hence the selection of Garcia ahead of him, even though the latter is an accident waiting to happen in a back 4 that defends as high up the pitch as we do. Come the summer, I'd be on the hunt for at least 1, if not 2, quality centre halves, and a left back. I wonder if we'll be hamstrung though into looking at English players only, courtesy of the 8 homegrowners rule, which I think we're right on the limit of?

I personally think we made a rick in not buying Cahill when he was available last season

Cahill is awful

 

[supercity88]

The fact of the matter is that when we won the league we were not the finished article. We were absolutely quality at times, and when teams worked us out we were one dimensional and lost several games away from home. The rags despite their poor team on paper pushed us and nearly beat us. But we managed to get home on goal difference.

The summer came and we failed to improve the side largely due to the club consolidating financially and not being willing to speng huge amounts on agent fees. The rags made one key purchase and that won them the title. Van Persie won them the title with so many crucial goals. They won at a canter. It was a poor strategy by City in failing on plan A and then having no plan B. Van Persie was brilliant but how many seasons does he have left considering his injuries?

We did sign Nastasic and he is a silver lining.

I remember Shaun Wright Phillips tearing Clichy apart time and time again when he was at Arsenal. And Clichy has not improved from that time. He doesn't know whether to get tight or back off. Zabaleta manages to defend well despite his pace. Whilst he performed well in the title winning season I still think that in a more competitive premier league season our squad is not complete.

We won the league a lot quicker than I imagined we would. Our side went from a team of borderline prem players to a team of good prem players making signings like Bridge, Bellamy, Adebayor, Barry etc and then we became an excellent side with the additions of Silva, Yaya, Aguero etc. Kompany, Zabaleta and others improved during that time too. But weaknesses still remained. Every side normally has one, though I struggle to find one in the Bayern side. A left back remains key in my opinion, and if the club is forward thinking then Luke Shaw should be a possibility because he ticks so many boxes. CB is difficult, we have two quality defenders who are young for their profession, a calm and collected player who the manager knows well in Demichelis and then I still feel we need one more to cover to avoid relying on Garcia. Lescott will surely look to leave. Will our academy players fill the remaining squad places?

Midfield wise I feel we need a better defensive player than Garcia although he seems to have benefited from a spell in CB (going on a good performance against Chelsea). A player that can beat a man and do something special, a player of the ilk of Silva, Yaya and Aguero - one that could exist already in Jovetic - that is the last piece. I do not think we are too far away. But we were never a million miles better than the other teams and our European performances and lack of consistency proved that. Pellegrini I am sure will bring a model to the squad and will see us become more consistent no matter who plays. This is what the rags were always able to do despite playing some dross players.

 

[SalfordCityBlue]

I remain concerned, but my excitement is also growing - it could go either way for me.

The signs are both positive and negative, in pretty much equal measure.

If Pellegrini at al are right in what they're trying to do we could become incredible and a real force in European football, if they are wrong it could be disastrous (not qualifying for the Champions League would, I assume, be catastrophic for us at this time).

A 'transitional season' is unacceptable because we didn't need it - we were already in the best shape of our (recent) lives. We don't have to win the league (expecting that every year is just ridiculous) but we do need to be in the fight until the end at the very least.

Very much waiting to see at the moment, just can't call which way it will go. I am far more positive than I was a month or so ago though, I will say that. Just get the feeling we are about ready to take off...

 

[grahamgor]

At Stamford Bridge, there was much to praise about Pellegrini's managerial performance but some grounds for criticism as well.

over tactics, MP was right to bolster midfield . Chelsea's home record plus their skilful attacking players had to be acknowledged.
from 70 minutes on, he became more offensive. We'd equalised and might well've taken the lead but for Garcia's weak header when well placed and Cech's great save with his boot from Silva's powerful shot.It was then that he sent on Navas for Nasri and Chelsea reacted with a series of desperate(albeit unpunished )fouls.
Last ten minutes and MP went further in a justifiable attempt to clinch all three points.With chelsea reliant on free kicks, he replaced Garcia with Kolarov . But this wasn't naive attacking a la Kevin Keegan -Yaya dropped back to provide insurance. Both Zabaleta and Kolarov bombed forward and Zaba steered the ball across the box but sadly no one got on the end of it.had it not been for Hart's blunder ,Pellegrini's balanced tactics would have been vindicated.


In team selection, MP went wrong in selecting Clichy ahead of Kolarov. Clichy has struggled time after time this season -against Kim Bo Kyung at cardiff and against Hatem ben Arfa versus newcastle, let alone Robben and Rafinha.Against chelsea, he couldn't deal with Ivanovic's forward runs, never marked tight and was easily outpaced by Torres in the buildup to their first goal.

In the technical zone, and with howard webb in charge- a ref easily swayed by arrogant, loud-mouthed managers(one in particular! )-.Pellegrini needed to be far more vocal in protesting fouls.Navas was harshly treated by Ramires, Silva was thuggishly bodychecked by Ivanovic and Terry's foul on Kun was brutal and cynical-even by his standards! what's more, Kun was stood on the 18 yard line at the time. Mourinho was bawling his head off about less blatant City infringements and freekicks were being awarded.At the end ,it was left to Silva to have words with Webb and it would've been better if MP had spoken to him. We'll no doubt have to put up with him again and it would've been cleverer to have put down a marker.
On the other hand, I appreciate that MP was eager not to be drawn into a confrontation with Mourinho and he was quite right to avoid a handshake after that display of cheap triumphalism when ' The Classless One' went into the crowd behind the City bench.

I can't blame MP for his answers in the presser but , though his English is surprisingly good for a guy who's never worked over here till now, he's not fluent as mourinho is. when he was asked about his refusal to shake hands, he didn't have the words to point out exactly why he'd refused.this allowed the media to paint him as a sensitive guy who'd been upset because they'd had previous in Spain.Mourinho was allowed to come up smelling of roses by Sly Sports and Talkshite whereas it's Manuel Pellegrini who is a man of principle who chose to distance himself from Mourinho's lowdown antics.