Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[OB1]

Hart was already a duck egg before Pellegrini came along, or have you forgotten Mancini's public criticism of him? Plus, what exactly did our defence focused set up win us last year? Chuff all. I don't think Pellegrini's philosophy is necessarily flawed, but rather we don't have good enough defenders at present to make it work consistently. I would happily off load Clichy and Lescott if I thought better options were available, whilst Nastasic without Kompany to guide him is an error strewn mess at the moment.
And just as an addendum, to what do you think Liverpool owe their sudden propulsion up the table? Suarez and Sturridge or Skrtel and Agger?

Whilst I agree with all your sentiments, and I certainly think another centre half would be great, I'm convinced clichy just needs to play himself back into form. I suspect demichelis will be a good enough deputy for vinny in the short term so for me I'd be happy to agree with your other proposition if a world class left sided centre half came available.

Clichy's a concern to me. Excellent when we won the title, but he hasn't made the most of his ability since then IMO. Always seems reluctant to bomb on into space and put a cross in, preferring instead to check back with a resultant loss in momentum. I also can't work out how someone with so much supposed pace, gets bummed on the outside so often. For Torres, read Calum McManaman. He has the ability, because we've seen it, but it speaks volumes for his loss of form that Kolarov, whose defensive efforts are usually oafish at best, is back in contention as the club's no.1 left back. I'd take Baines or Shaw over either of them any day of the week.
Lescott, much as I think he's good for morale, just doesn't have the technique I think Pellegrini's looking for in his centre halves, hence the selection of Garcia ahead of him, even though the latter is an accident waiting to happen in a back 4 that defends as high up the pitch as we do. Come the summer, I'd be on the hunt for at least 1, if not 2, quality centre halves, and a left back. I wonder if we'll be hamstrung though into looking at English players only, courtesy of the 8 homegrowners rule, which I think we're right on the limit of?

Fair points.

Hard to know when and if Clichy will repeat the form of 11/12. He did at one point fire in just the sort of cross that he should attempt with more frequency; that may have been just before he got done by Torres? Anyhow, we do need to get a new left back into the squad and that is not a new requirement.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

He needs to stand by his convictions and not let criticism dictate the team he picks. He started with 2 up top against Bayern Munich and we got dicked (Beckkenbaur stated it was the best Bayern performance in a decade). Best team in Europe, he had a go, fair play. But he got slated in the media for that and I think that had a bearing on his team selection Sunday.

Sunday we played a Chelsea team with a CB pairing of an old John Terry and Gary Cahill, If Pellegrini stuck by his convictions and started his best partnership up top, instead of changing system and showing Chelsea way to much respect, I think we could have came away with 3 points instead of the 1 he went for.

Spot on. Negredo in the 85th minute. What was that all about. Should have changed it on the hour IMO.

You're both badly wrong in my opinion. Going into that game with 4222 would have been the wrong thing to do. We needed to pack the midfield, that's what we did and that's why we were the better side for most of the game. Bayern was an illustration of what can happen when you're outnumbered in the midfield.

And the Negredo change was simple. There was no way we were going to go 2 up top unless we were chasing the game (I think we'd have done it on the hour if Sergio hadn't scored). And Aguero was simply outstanding, so there was no way he should be taken off. The reason we did on 85 minutes was simple: they were winning loads of freekicks and delivering them into the box. Negredo is a good defensive header, and also a good outlet ball if you're under the cosh.

the manager got both those things right I believe. The questionable sub was Kolorov.

 

[OB1]

Eh? Furry bollocks is that the answer ?

So what does that equate to. Is our defence from that stat performing better than Southamptons for instance?. Do we have the best defence in the league then currently?

If not what can we deduce from this information?

How do you think the defence is performing?

Our defence has made too many costly errors which is why the number of goals conceded is higher than the shots against would lead you to expect. However, the way that the team as a whole is playing is not allowing our opponents lots of chances. The system that we are developing is very promising. If we could consistently field our best back four, I'd expect our defensive record to improve rapidly.

Furry bollocks edited

:-)

You don't think that's a good sign then? You wouldn't expect that if we continue to allow the fewest shots on our goal that our defensive record will start to reflect that performance indicator?

 

[supercity88]

Pellegrini is an intelligent and thoughtful man and he knows exactly what he wants from his teams. He doesn't get involved in the game to the extent Mourinho does, which is down right disrespectful and idiotic at times. Sliding on his knees etc, he is the manager and not a player. Pellegrini is held in high regard by his colleagues, by players and by those that know him. The media in this country has not been massively negative about him, they have questioned his lack of experience in the league etc and they question his rotation claiming he hasn't realised this is such a tough league etc. That is not true. Being a good manager requires knowledge of football and of what you want from a team, and ability to manage players and situations. He is methodical, intelligent and has an engineering degree. Therefore he is a problem solver. Whilst not related to football, for me it is evidence that he will solve the issues that have arisen so far. Given time he will make City a fantastic side that can challenge both domestically and in Europe. Mourinho has a life cycle at a club, he buys as many players and he can wins a few trophies and then leaves the club behind to struggle with the factions he has created. He does take pressure off his players at times, as Mancini did at the end of the title winning season. But he also is critical and not afraid to step on toes, give it a couple of years and yet again he will leave Chelsea in a horrible state of affairs.

What Pellegrini will do is implement a philosophy and model that is exactly how Fergiescum conducted things at the swamp. We are City, this is how we play, this is what we are about. The model that Guardiola takes wherever he goes and the type of thing Txiki and Sorriano see as key. We can change players and the system and the philosophy will remain. We will have a squad that can play all the required parts to make the system work. He has proven that this works both on paper and in practice. He took a Malaga side far below our City team in terms of talent, to the brink of the semi finals. They knew their roles and had faith in the system. It was adapted home and away and it worked. He has better players here at City, when the players learn the system and mistakes are eradicated as I have mentioned before then it will work. It is the perfect football philosophy and he is a methodical man. He gives players time and keeps the faith. He motivates them and lets them know they will get an opportunity. If they mess up he offers support but if he continues to mess up he will give them a kick up the arse and tell them they need to go away and improve.

The key to management is to improve productivity and get results. Don't tell someone they are shit. Tell them that what they did was shit considering how much talent they have and how good they normally are. Give them a boost despite being negative. Everything I have seen from Pellegrini has been positive. The Bayern game was the only match we were completely destroyed in. Cant complain too much considering Barca were beaten 3-0 and 4-0 by that side. Comments from Baines after the Everton win alluded to the fact we were well rehearsed and playing to counter their weaknesses. It worked. And that is a tactically strong side under a brilliant young manager.

Things will improve. We will be in the mix for the title and we will qualify from our champions league group and who knows what could happen. Pellegrini is most certainly the man to take us to where we want to be.

 

[OB1]

Many, if not most, supporters were prepared to give Pellegrini "time", but the situation is now beginning to cause concern. The mantra was that after ten games the class would show, and City would be up there with Chelsea. On Sky they still maintained that these were the two best teams in the PL. But City are not "up there",we are actually back in seventh, and this is nowhere near what was expected after 9 games.

We have given some good performances, it's hard to say we haven't played very well at times and the new signings have looked good and are getting better, but not only have we not won enough matches, we have lost too many. If draws were the curse of last season... And there's no sign any of our problems are getting any better. We can say that we lost to Chelsea, a top team with a top manager, and that few teams will leave SB unbeaten. We can say it was a stupid error that cost us a point, but this does not change the fact that we lost a match should at least have drawn. Champions "win ugly": we are losing while playing well! And not for the first time. And the manner of the defeat is becoming depressingly familiar. On Sunday a hacked clearance straight down the middle provoked an act of madness from Joe Hart. Against Villa a punt down the middle provoked incompetence from Vinnie and Nastasic and madness from Joe. In Moscow a long high ball caused panic and incompetence, Joe charged out and Tosic scored with a lob! In Cardiff any high ball into our box caused trouble and a lad 5' 8" tall scored with two headers. Fairly poor crosses brought Chelsea three wasted chances on Sunday, as our back four stood arms in air Arsenal style appealing for an offside that never was. We can analyse every game we have played this season and say that our defence is poor. "Pellegrini let down by his players" is the claim. Yes, but which player in our defence has not let him down? And more than once? And why do all five look pale shadows of the players they were last season? They look as though they don't trust each other, and they don't know what the others are doing or what the others should be doing. They are a disorganised rabble at times. Some of that is because we haven't had a settled back four. Only in part is this due to injury. At times it is down to the manager's choice. But whoever plays there is a lack of organisation which is down to a lack of adequate coaching, and a failure to get across to the players what they are expected to do. Even Vinnie has looked uncertain and plain poor at times this season.

It is no good consoling ourselves that we play attractive football and score goals. Those are not the ambitions of a manager of the most expensive squad in the Pl. He has to do that of course - but he has to beat the Cardiffs and Villas of this world, and not see draws at Chelsea thrown away.

You don't think that making changes to our approach to defending and being blighted by injuries to defenders might make it difficult to get the level of defensive organisation and performance that we are ultimately aiming for? You have just highlighted a number of errors; many of which are not necessarily systematic ones. The system will though go wrong, more so when it is being implemented. Furthermore, the higher line and more aggressive use of the offside trap, mean that when it goes wrong it will look bad; just like it looks particularly horrible when you get zonal marking at a corner wrong.

I'll reiterate that City are actually conceding less shots per game than any other team in the division. Unfortunately we are allowing an abnormally high conversion rate from those shots and I put that down to the level of errors that players are making; not the system of play that Pellegrini is trying to install.

Pellegrini was not employed to replicate Mancini's approach and if some of the players that he inherits are not up to the job of playing Pellegrini's way , which may be part of the problem, they will have to be changed. At the moment, it is not entirely clear how much is down, to poor form, inability to adapt, an abnormal cluster of fuck-ups or what. That is why the manager needs to be given time.

 

[crystal_mais]

Practically every point you make refers to the 2011-12 title winning season. Those days had already gone and were well behind us before this manager took charge. You seem to have developed a convenient mental block about last season when we didn't score anything like enough goals, couldn't break down defensive teams and lost practically every key game. That's what he inherited.

Also to add - I would break it down from the semi final vs RAGs in FA cup upto end of November the title winning season. Some of the football played was unbelievable - since then we have played well in patches. All in the stats if someone wants to have a look.

I also believe that 1st Champs League group was one we should have got through. Napoli were good but should have been beatable. Last season was tough but we should have got 3rd.

Joes form has been in the wane since Mancini publicly started having a crack at him.

This defence needs to stop making errors I agree but it's going to be goals that will win games.

-- Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:50 am --

Clichy's a concern to me. Excellent when we won the title, but he hasn't made the most of his ability since then IMO. Always seems reluctant to bomb on into space and put a cross in, preferring instead to check back with a resultant loss in momentum. I also can't work out how someone with so much supposed pace, gets bummed on the outside so often. For Torres, read Calum McManaman. He has the ability, because we've seen it, but it speaks volumes for his loss of form that Kolarov, whose defensive efforts are usually oafish at best, is back in contention as the club's no.1 left back. I'd take Baines or Shaw over either of them any day of the week.
Lescott, much as I think he's good for morale, just doesn't have the technique I think Pellegrini's looking for in his centre halves, hence the selection of Garcia ahead of him, even though the latter is an accident waiting to happen in a back 4 that defends as high up the pitch as we do. Come the summer, I'd be on the hunt for at least 1, if not 2, quality centre halves, and a left back. I wonder if we'll be hamstrung though into looking at English players only, courtesy of the 8 homegrowners rule, which I think we're right on the limit of?

I personally think we made a rick in not buying Cahill when he was available last season

Cahill is awful

I don't think he is that bad moomba. The problem is we need homegrown players and I don't see many top CB's - Cahill us the best of a poor bunch. He is more comfortable on the ball than Lescott

 

[OB1]

Pellegrini is an intelligent and thoughtful man and he knows exactly what he wants from his teams. He doesn't get involved in the game to the extent Mourinho does, which is down right disrespectful and idiotic at times. Sliding on his knees etc, he is the manager and not a player. Pellegrini is held in high regard by his colleagues, by players and by those that know him. The media in this country has not been massively negative about him, they have questioned his lack of experience in the league etc and they question his rotation claiming he hasn't realised this is such a tough league etc. That is not true. Being a good manager requires knowledge of football and of what you want from a team, and ability to manage players and situations. He is methodical, intelligent and has an engineering degree. Therefore he is a problem solver. Whilst not related to football, for me it is evidence that he will solve the issues that have arisen so far. Given time he will make City a fantastic side that can challenge both domestically and in Europe. Mourinho has a life cycle at a club, he buys as many players and he can wins a few trophies and then leaves the club behind to struggle with the factions he has created. He does take pressure off his players at times, as Mancini did at the end of the title winning season. But he also is critical and not afraid to step on toes, give it a couple of years and yet again he will leave Chelsea in a horrible state of affairs.

What Pellegrini will do is implement a philosophy and model that is exactly how Fergiescum conducted things at the swamp. We are City, this is how we play, this is what we are about. The model that Guardiola takes wherever he goes and the type of thing Txiki and Sorriano see as key. We can change players and the system and the philosophy will remain. We will have a squad that can play all the required parts to make the system work. He has proven that this works both on paper and in practice. He took a Malaga side far below our City team in terms of talent, to the brink of the semi finals. They knew their roles and had faith in the system. It was adapted home and away and it worked. He has better players here at City, when the players learn the system and mistakes are eradicated as I have mentioned before then it will work. It is the perfect football philosophy and he is a methodical man. He gives players time and keeps the faith. He motivates them and lets them know they will get an opportunity. If they mess up he offers support but if he continues to mess up he will give them a kick up the arse and tell them they need to go away and improve.

The key to management is to improve productivity and get results. Don't tell someone they are shit. Tell them that what they did was shit considering how much talent they have and how good they normally are. Give them a boost despite being negative. Everything I have seen from Pellegrini has been positive. The Bayern game was the only match we were completely destroyed in. Cant complain too much considering Barca were beaten 3-0 and 4-0 by that side. Comments from Baines after the Everton win alluded to the fact we were well rehearsed and playing to counter their weaknesses. It worked. And that is a tactically strong side under a brilliant young manager.

Things will improve. We will be in the mix for the title and we will qualify from our champions league group and who knows what could happen. Pellegrini is most certainly the man to take us to where we want to be.

Billy will love that post;-)

 

[supercity88]

OB1 I now only write for him. I seek approval so much that I don't even know what I think anymore. I just know Billy loves it! ;)

 

[Anonymous]

Pellegrini is an intelligent and thoughtful man and he knows exactly what he wants from his teams. He doesn't get involved in the game to the extent Mourinho does, which is down right disrespectful and idiotic at times. Sliding on his knees etc, he is the manager and not a player. Pellegrini is held in high regard by his colleagues, by players and by those that know him. The media in this country has not been massively negative about him, they have questioned his lack of experience in the league etc and they question his rotation claiming he hasn't realised this is such a tough league etc. That is not true. Being a good manager requires knowledge of football and of what you want from a team, and ability to manage players and situations. He is methodical, intelligent and has an engineering degree. Therefore he is a problem solver. Whilst not related to football, for me it is evidence that he will solve the issues that have arisen so far. Given time he will make City a fantastic side that can challenge both domestically and in Europe. Mourinho has a life cycle at a club, he buys as many players and he can wins a few trophies and then leaves the club behind to struggle with the factions he has created. He does take pressure off his players at times, as Mancini did at the end of the title winning season. But he also is critical and not afraid to step on toes, give it a couple of years and yet again he will leave Chelsea in a horrible state of affairs.

What Pellegrini will do is implement a philosophy and model that is exactly how Fergiescum conducted things at the swamp. We are City, this is how we play, this is what we are about. The model that Guardiola takes wherever he goes and the type of thing Txiki and Sorriano see as key. We can change players and the system and the philosophy will remain. We will have a squad that can play all the required parts to make the system work. He has proven that this works both on paper and in practice. He took a Malaga side far below our City team in terms of talent, to the brink of the semi finals. They knew their roles and had faith in the system. It was adapted home and away and it worked. He has better players here at City, when the players learn the system and mistakes are eradicated as I have mentioned before then it will work. It is the perfect football philosophy and he is a methodical man. He gives players time and keeps the faith. He motivates them and lets them know they will get an opportunity. If they mess up he offers support but if he continues to mess up he will give them a kick up the arse and tell them they need to go away and improve.

The key to management is to improve productivity and get results. Don't tell someone they are shit. Tell them that what they did was shit considering how much talent they have and how good they normally are. Give them a boost despite being negative. Everything I have seen from Pellegrini has been positive. The Bayern game was the only match we were completely destroyed in. Cant complain too much considering Barca were beaten 3-0 and 4-0 by that side. Comments from Baines after the Everton win alluded to the fact we were well rehearsed and playing to counter their weaknesses. It worked. And that is a tactically strong side under a brilliant young manager.

Things will improve. We will be in the mix for the title and we will qualify from our champions league group and who knows what could happen. Pellegrini is most certainly the man to take us to where we want to be.

Billy will love that post;-)

I do indeed ... it's like the perfect counterpoint to some of the more inane ramblings about how far backwards Pellegrini is supposedly taking us.

 

[taconinja]

He needs to stand by his convictions and not let criticism dictate the team he picks. He started with 2 up top against Bayern Munich and we got dicked (Beckkenbaur stated it was the best Bayern performance in a decade). Best team in Europe, he had a go, fair play. But he got slated in the media for that and I think that had a bearing on his team selection Sunday.

Sunday we played a Chelsea team with a CB pairing of an old John Terry and Gary Cahill, If Pellegrini stuck by his convictions and started his best partnership up top, instead of changing system and showing Chelsea way to much respect, I think we could have came away with 3 points instead of the 1 he went for.

Spot on. Negredo in the 85th minute. What was that all about. Should have changed it on the hour IMO.

You're both badly wrong in my opinion. Going into that game with 4222 would have been the wrong thing to do. We needed to pack the midfield, that's what we did and that's why we were the better side for most of the game. Bayern was an illustration of what can happen when you're outnumbered in the midfield.

And the Negredo change was simple. There was no way we were going to go 2 up top unless we were chasing the game (I think we'd have done it on the hour if Sergio hadn't scored). And Aguero was simply outstanding, so there was no way he should be taken off. The reason we did on 85 minutes was simple: they were winning loads of freekicks and delivering them into the box. Negredo is a good defensive header, and also a good outlet ball if you're under the cosh.

the manager got both those things right I believe. The questionable sub was Kolorov.

I was puzzled by it too but it worked to be fair. They found far less joy down our left side with both Clichy and Kolarov on the pitch. They had to resort to throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest touch for free kicks centrally.