Discuss Pellegrini...

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uwe rosler 28 said:
TGR said:
strongbowholic said:
They've got a lot of growing to do then :)

Here's Martin Samuel's take on Pellers (apols if already posted elsewhere):

We might not like it but he usually hits the nail on the head
and he has done yet again.
What he has written is very hard to argue against.
In the crucial games against both Chelsea and Liverpool when it really counted we have come away without a single point.
That is not how champions win titles.

champions win titles by getting more points than the opposition! So IF we do win the title are you saying we don't deserve it because we haven't won the big games when we needed to?

Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.
 
TGR said:
strongbowholic said:
supercity88 said:
The media will grow to love the professionalism City show. They have Mourinho for their headlines. They have Liverpool for their love story and Pellegrini just gets on with the job. The media don't win games. Any team that gives in to media pressure is a weak one. The underdog would never win if the media were so effective. Chelsea have still been poor and lost games they should win despite the Mourinho "factor". They lost 3-1 in Paris to a PSG side that were average at best. And scraped through 2-0 at home playing Sam Allardyce Bolton bus football. It makes no difference whatsoever. Liverpool can talk all they want about doing it for the 96, for Gerrard for whatever the hell they want to do it for. It matters not. They can be motivated all they want, pumped up all they want it makes no difference they might still slip up.

Gerrard's talked about treating it like the CL final v Milan. The one where they were 3-0 down and won on pens. Would love him to take that mentality into the remaining games personally as that way they draw the rest of their games! Such utter bollocks being spouted around. Meanwhile we now literally have no pressure and nothing to lose. It's the way we like it and it's what can see us win the league. By the time anyone talks about us winning the league again we will have two home games left. We don't like to do things the easy way, we don't like to lead from the front and we don't like pressure. We do like being underdog and we do like surprising others!

They've got a lot of growing to do then :)

Here's Martin Samuel's take on Pellers (apols if already posted elsewhere):

If Manuel Pellegrini wanted to prove the inferior nature of Chelsea’s football, there was a perfect time to do it. February 3, 2014, between 8pm and 9.45pm. Manchester City versus Chelsea at the Etihad Stadium. Going into that fixture, City were two points behind leaders Arsenal, with a game in hand, and three points clear of third-placed Chelsea.
Win and they would have gone top, six points up on Chelsea and nine on Liverpool. Instead Pellegrini lost, 1-0, and his City team were outplayed. They have not been the same since.

In the weeks before the defeat, City had put six past Arsenal, five past Tottenham Hotspur, won at Bayern Munich and defeated West Ham United 9-0 on aggregate in the Capital One Cup semi-final. The first match after Chelsea was a goalless draw at Norwich City, since when Pellegrini has been well beaten by Barcelona in the Champions League, eliminated in the FA Cup by Wigan Athletic and lost another vital league match at Liverpool.

The Capital One Cup triumph and a humbling of Manchester United at Old Trafford cannot overcome the feeling that City have never quite recovered from the job Jose Mourinho did on them. They played the first half at Anfield on Sunday like a team fearing the worst.
So, for Pellegrini to claim a Chelsea title win would be bad for football is presumptuous indeed. Manchester City’s manager had 90 minutes to prove the mediocrity of Mourinho’s ways and failed miserably.

Indeed, the best he can hope for now is that Chelsea do what his team could not do by beating Liverpool away on April 27. This would put the title back in Manchester City’s hands. Without Mourinho’s cussed resistance, however unlovely, the prize is Liverpool’s all the way.
Pellegrini has a history with Mou-rinho — doesn’t everybody — but even allowing for this animosity, his words were a little intemperate.
Asked about the prospect of Chelsea nipping in to win the title, he said: ‘It would be very disappointing for football, for the fans, for everyone. I think the most attractive football, the most goals you can score, should be rewarded. Big teams must play as big teams.’
Yet what is bigger than Chelsea’s record against the elite this season? All six points from City, three from three against Liverpool, four from Manchester United, Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur.

Only Everton, in the top eight, have beaten them — and Chelsea avenged that early-season 1-0 win later in the campaign at Stamford Bridge.
And, yes, winning beautifully should be the ultimate aim. Chelsea average 1.9 goals in the league this season, compared to Manchester City’s 2.6 and Liverpool’s 2.7. City have scored 20 goals more than Chelsea from two fewer games. Yet that is just one means of evaluation, and each will throw up a different winner.

Chelsea have lost one game against a top-eight side this season, City have lost three, Liverpool four. City were beaten home and away by Chelsea, who still have the potential to claim six points from Liverpool, too. What does this mean? Well, in Spain, if Manchester City and Chelsea finished level on points, Chelsea would win the league on head-to-head. La Liga considers this a fairer way of achieving separation than goal difference, when routs of inferiors can have a greater effect than the biggest games between title challengers. Having lost to Chelsea home and away, why should it matter that City put five past Fulham at home, when Chelsea only won 2-0? Chelsea play Norwich City on May 4 and probably will not emulate City’s 7-0 win on November 2. Yet surely, Chelsea 2 Manchester City 1, Manchester City 0 Chelsea 1, count for more? Not in the Premier League. It is an irony that Pellegrini now sets store by the accumulation of goals, having made his name in the one major European league where that doesn’t matter.

Even in England, goal difference has only been required as a title decider in the top division on six occasions, most recently in 2011-12 when Manchester City finished ahead of Manchester United, the first time a tiebreaker had been used in 23 years.
So, on most occasions, points are enough, meaning Pellegrini’s claim is wrong. League titles are not solely the preserve of the most prolific goalscorers.
The Premier League has completed 21 campaigns and eight have been won by teams who were not outright top of the goalscoring charts that season.
Most recently, in 2008-09, Manchester United (68) were outscored by second-placed Liverpool (77), while in 1997-98, Arsenal (68) scored fewer goals than both second-placed Manchester United (73) and fourth-placed Chelsea (71).
Manchester United were not top scorers for either of Sir Alex Ferguson’s first two titles, either, yet the most incredible feat, naturally, belongs to Mourinho.

His first Chelsea title was won scoring 15 goals fewer than Arsenal but earning 12 points more. He has a remarkable gift for strategy.
And we’re big boys over here. We can handle that. If you’ve got the most points after the last game has been played, you are the champions, and deserve it, whether the critics are snoring or not.
Scoring is the purpose of the game, and a well-worked goal its most arresting sight, yet that is not the only aspect of football worthy of consideration.
Mourinho does not have strikers to compare to those at Manchester City and Liverpool this season, so must find other ways to win. Watching him do this is still compelling, even if it doesn’t often produce matches as memorable as the one at Anfield on Sunday.
As manager of Real Madrid, Pellegrini set a points record for the season but finished runner-up to Barcelona.

His followers still talk proudly of this as if it made him something more than best loser.
Now, if Chelsea somehow muscle their way to the fore, no doubt Pellegrini will be expecting credit once more for all that lovely football.
Yet he had a chance to make an incontrovertible case two months ago, and failed. A big team turned up and did what they had to do.
Where the title is concerned anything beyond that, really, is just chatter.

We might not like it but he usually hits the nail on the head
and he has done yet again.
What he has written is very hard to argue against.
In the crucial games against both Chelsea and Liverpool when it really counted we have come away without a single point.
That is not how champions win titles.

I don't have the stats to hand so I stand to be corrected. However in years gone by I'm pretty sure when the rags have won titles, their record against direct rivals wasn't so great either. But they were flat track bullies who swept aside the so called lesser teams with ease.

For that reason, as much as it can be said results against Chelsea have cost us, the Cardiff/Sunderland/Villa away games were much more damaging. Even only 5pts from those 3 games would have us in a much better position.
 
chris85mcfc said:
Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.

I suspect the club will more likely look at Cardiff/Villa/Liverpool/Chelsea not because we were outplayed or because we should've play for a draw, but because those matches were thrown away due to unforced errors from reliable players.
 
chris85mcfc said:
uwe rosler 28 said:
TGR said:
We might not like it but he usually hits the nail on the head
and he has done yet again.
What he has written is very hard to argue against.
In the crucial games against both Chelsea and Liverpool when it really counted we have come away without a single point.
That is not how champions win titles.

champions win titles by getting more points than the opposition! So IF we do win the title are you saying we don't deserve it because we haven't won the big games when we needed to?

Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.

We were fucking excellent against Chelsea. How can you blame Pellegrini for us not winning that game ?
 
prestonibbo_mcfc said:
chris85mcfc said:
uwe rosler 28 said:
champions win titles by getting more points than the opposition! So IF we do win the title are you saying we don't deserve it because we haven't won the big games when we needed to?

Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.

We were fucking excellent against Chelsea. How can you blame Pellegrini for us not winning that game ?
Away we probably deserved a point,at home we deserved nothing...
 
TGR said:
strongbowholic said:
supercity88 said:
The media will grow to love the professionalism City show. They have Mourinho for their headlines. They have Liverpool for their love story and Pellegrini just gets on with the job. The media don't win games. Any team that gives in to media pressure is a weak one. The underdog would never win if the media were so effective. Chelsea have still been poor and lost games they should win despite the Mourinho "factor". They lost 3-1 in Paris to a PSG side that were average at best. And scraped through 2-0 at home playing Sam Allardyce Bolton bus football. It makes no difference whatsoever. Liverpool can talk all they want about doing it for the 96, for Gerrard for whatever the hell they want to do it for. It matters not. They can be motivated all they want, pumped up all they want it makes no difference they might still slip up.

Gerrard's talked about treating it like the CL final v Milan. The one where they were 3-0 down and won on pens. Would love him to take that mentality into the remaining games personally as that way they draw the rest of their games! Such utter bollocks being spouted around. Meanwhile we now literally have no pressure and nothing to lose. It's the way we like it and it's what can see us win the league. By the time anyone talks about us winning the league again we will have two home games left. We don't like to do things the easy way, we don't like to lead from the front and we don't like pressure. We do like being underdog and we do like surprising others!

They've got a lot of growing to do then :)

Here's Martin Samuel's take on Pellers (apols if already posted elsewhere):

If Manuel Pellegrini wanted to prove the inferior nature of Chelsea’s football, there was a perfect time to do it. February 3, 2014, between 8pm and 9.45pm. Manchester City versus Chelsea at the Etihad Stadium. Going into that fixture, City were two points behind leaders Arsenal, with a game in hand, and three points clear of third-placed Chelsea.
Win and they would have gone top, six points up on Chelsea and nine on Liverpool. Instead Pellegrini lost, 1-0, and his City team were outplayed. They have not been the same since.

In the weeks before the defeat, City had put six past Arsenal, five past Tottenham Hotspur, won at Bayern Munich and defeated West Ham United 9-0 on aggregate in the Capital One Cup semi-final. The first match after Chelsea was a goalless draw at Norwich City, since when Pellegrini has been well beaten by Barcelona in the Champions League, eliminated in the FA Cup by Wigan Athletic and lost another vital league match at Liverpool.

The Capital One Cup triumph and a humbling of Manchester United at Old Trafford cannot overcome the feeling that City have never quite recovered from the job Jose Mourinho did on them. They played the first half at Anfield on Sunday like a team fearing the worst.
So, for Pellegrini to claim a Chelsea title win would be bad for football is presumptuous indeed. Manchester City’s manager had 90 minutes to prove the mediocrity of Mourinho’s ways and failed miserably.

Indeed, the best he can hope for now is that Chelsea do what his team could not do by beating Liverpool away on April 27. This would put the title back in Manchester City’s hands. Without Mourinho’s cussed resistance, however unlovely, the prize is Liverpool’s all the way.
Pellegrini has a history with Mou-rinho — doesn’t everybody — but even allowing for this animosity, his words were a little intemperate.
Asked about the prospect of Chelsea nipping in to win the title, he said: ‘It would be very disappointing for football, for the fans, for everyone. I think the most attractive football, the most goals you can score, should be rewarded. Big teams must play as big teams.’
Yet what is bigger than Chelsea’s record against the elite this season? All six points from City, three from three against Liverpool, four from Manchester United, Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur.

Only Everton, in the top eight, have beaten them — and Chelsea avenged that early-season 1-0 win later in the campaign at Stamford Bridge.
And, yes, winning beautifully should be the ultimate aim. Chelsea average 1.9 goals in the league this season, compared to Manchester City’s 2.6 and Liverpool’s 2.7. City have scored 20 goals more than Chelsea from two fewer games. Yet that is just one means of evaluation, and each will throw up a different winner.

Chelsea have lost one game against a top-eight side this season, City have lost three, Liverpool four. City were beaten home and away by Chelsea, who still have the potential to claim six points from Liverpool, too. What does this mean? Well, in Spain, if Manchester City and Chelsea finished level on points, Chelsea would win the league on head-to-head. La Liga considers this a fairer way of achieving separation than goal difference, when routs of inferiors can have a greater effect than the biggest games between title challengers. Having lost to Chelsea home and away, why should it matter that City put five past Fulham at home, when Chelsea only won 2-0? Chelsea play Norwich City on May 4 and probably will not emulate City’s 7-0 win on November 2. Yet surely, Chelsea 2 Manchester City 1, Manchester City 0 Chelsea 1, count for more? Not in the Premier League. It is an irony that Pellegrini now sets store by the accumulation of goals, having made his name in the one major European league where that doesn’t matter.

Even in England, goal difference has only been required as a title decider in the top division on six occasions, most recently in 2011-12 when Manchester City finished ahead of Manchester United, the first time a tiebreaker had been used in 23 years.
So, on most occasions, points are enough, meaning Pellegrini’s claim is wrong. League titles are not solely the preserve of the most prolific goalscorers.
The Premier League has completed 21 campaigns and eight have been won by teams who were not outright top of the goalscoring charts that season.
Most recently, in 2008-09, Manchester United (68) were outscored by second-placed Liverpool (77), while in 1997-98, Arsenal (68) scored fewer goals than both second-placed Manchester United (73) and fourth-placed Chelsea (71).
Manchester United were not top scorers for either of Sir Alex Ferguson’s first two titles, either, yet the most incredible feat, naturally, belongs to Mourinho.

His first Chelsea title was won scoring 15 goals fewer than Arsenal but earning 12 points more. He has a remarkable gift for strategy.
And we’re big boys over here. We can handle that. If you’ve got the most points after the last game has been played, you are the champions, and deserve it, whether the critics are snoring or not.
Scoring is the purpose of the game, and a well-worked goal its most arresting sight, yet that is not the only aspect of football worthy of consideration.
Mourinho does not have strikers to compare to those at Manchester City and Liverpool this season, so must find other ways to win. Watching him do this is still compelling, even if it doesn’t often produce matches as memorable as the one at Anfield on Sunday.
As manager of Real Madrid, Pellegrini set a points record for the season but finished runner-up to Barcelona.

His followers still talk proudly of this as if it made him something more than best loser.
Now, if Chelsea somehow muscle their way to the fore, no doubt Pellegrini will be expecting credit once more for all that lovely football.
Yet he had a chance to make an incontrovertible case two months ago, and failed. A big team turned up and did what they had to do.
Where the title is concerned anything beyond that, really, is just chatter.

We might not like it but he usually hits the nail on the head
and he has done yet again.
What he has written is very hard to argue against.
In the crucial games against both Chelsea and Liverpool when it really counted we have come away without a single point.
That is not how champions win titles.

Except we beat Liverpool at home... Champions win titles by winning games. This season that usual connection between top3 results and winning the league is irrelevant. Liverpool are top. Their record has been mixed. We are potentially second with our games in hand. Even if Chelsea win their remaining 4 games, if we win our remaining 6 we win the league. So he has hit nothing on the head. The rags were renowned for their champion instinct, on how to grind out games. It isn't just based on top3 performances. It is so funny to see fans like yourself take in that bollocks. Chelsea have had a poor mentality in that they clearly can't perform in the lesser games. They've lost so many they should have won. Where is Mourinho's genius there? Every game is important. We now have to show why we deserve to win the league, by winning 6 games that on paper we can and should win. Liverpool have done it with their recent run. Chelsea have struggled for consistency and so have we. The best title winning sides have shown a consistent level of performance and unbeaten runs. We did it in 2011/12 and we have to do it now. I could write a similarly scathing article questioning why Mourinho's Chelsea are only able to turn up to the big games and question their characted and his ability to motivate them in games they should win. I could claim he is complacent and thinks they are won before he turns up. How can they lose to Villa and Palace away, play so poorly against Paris but then decide to turn up when they have to in the Champions League?
 
BillyShears said:
chris85mcfc said:
Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.

I suspect the club will more likely look at Cardiff/Villa/Liverpool/Chelsea not because we were outplayed or because we should've play for a draw, but because those matches were thrown away due to unforced errors from reliable players.

Exactly. Cardiff and Villa we were pretty comfortably in the driving seat at 2-1 and individual errors cost us 3 points and then ended up costing us a point. Same at the Chelsea and Liverpool game we worked hard to get back into both games after going behind and then errors have cost us again.
 
The cookie monster said:
prestonibbo_mcfc said:
chris85mcfc said:
Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.

We were fucking excellent against Chelsea. How can you blame Pellegrini for us not winning that game ?
Away we probably deserved a point,at home we deserved nothing...

Goals change games as they say, if we had scored 2 early excellent chances, then could have been a totally different game.
Just think it's a bit harsh to keep blaming the manager every time we don't win.
I know people think he has picked the wrong team or whatever, and I know people are entitled to their opinion,
but it's not the managers fault all the time, the players have to carry the majority of the burden.
Personally I think it's the mentality of a few of our players that need sorting, we still have players with the ability
to switch off at the worst times.

I'm not going to name names because this isn't a mud slinging exercise and I love this club to bits.
Just think there is a lot of unjustified criticism levelled at Manuel.

FFS if it was our beloved media doing this. Well we all know.
 
prestonibbo_mcfc said:
chris85mcfc said:
uwe rosler 28 said:
champions win titles by getting more points than the opposition! So IF we do win the title are you saying we don't deserve it because we haven't won the big games when we needed to?

Obviously correct. But if we don't win the league you have to look at those games against Liverpool and Chelsea and see that they are must NOT lose games. Winning those games is great but not losing them is as important. I made this point yesterday but if we had hung on at Stamford Bridge and took a point on Sunday (which would should have done) we'd be 2 points better off and Liverpool and Chelsea would both be 2 points worse off.

We were fucking excellent against Chelsea. How can you blame Pellegrini for us not winning that game ?

Que? I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying on the whole that games against your rivals are must NOT lose games, we've got 3 points out of 12 against Liverpool and Chelsea. Whether that be down to individual errors, wrong team selection, injuries etc

And for the record we were excellent against Chelsea in the second half. I thought we were pretty woeful in the first half as we were against Liverpool on Sunday. In games like that you can't just turn up in the second half when your already behind because 9 times out of 10 you'll end up with nothing.
 
prestonibbo_mcfc said:
The cookie monster said:
prestonibbo_mcfc said:
We were fucking excellent against Chelsea. How can you blame Pellegrini for us not winning that game ?
Away we probably deserved a point,at home we deserved nothing...

Goals change games as they say, if we had scored 2 early excellent chances, then could have been a totally different game.
Exactly this
I seem to recall two easy tap-ins before Chelsea even knew we had a half to play in that would have changed the make up of the game completely
Maureen wouldn't have had a masterclass of counter attacking play at two-nil down!
 
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