Fizman didn't have brown skin.eastlands oasis said:I liked the answer about Tony Adams revelation in his book about Danny Fleishman putting £50 million into Arsenal to buy players and how that was owner investment yet Arsenal fans now want to ban that when their current success was built on the same principles!
Below the elite there was a dream of success, but FFP has destroyed competition and your hopes... you will never be up there with Man United, Man City and Chelsea
Randy Lerner still can't find an owner for Premier League ever-presents Aston Villa, despite lowering his price
It is now more difficult for clubs like Villa and Southampton to be successful
Football has always been dominated by a small number of elite clubs
But they still had dreams of success with good management and investment
Now teams are being outlawed with FFP, what chance do they have?
The Bundesliga's top four in the last two seasons has not changed with Champions League money and FFP taking hold
Also, The idea that fans only come to see big clubs if your own team is not permitted to win is even more true now
Signings like Luke Shaw £27million move to Manchester United was one of the most inflationary transfers of the summer
By MARTIN SAMUEL - DEBATE
PUBLISHED: 07:56, 14 August 2014 | UPDATED: 15:55, 14 August 2014
Before I left for the summer holiday – very nice, thanks for asking – I wrote a column considering Randy Lerner’s failure to find a buyer for Aston Villa this summer, and the role played in this stagnation by financial fair play. Almost four weeks on and still no new owner. You can read the column here, and the reaction below. Shall we get started?
Moving on? Aston Villa owner Randy Lerner has been actively trying to sell the Premier League club
I don't know why owners would be put off. The slap on the wrist fine that Manchester City and Paris St Germain received is evidence that FFP isn't being enforced very strictly. Someone with enough financial clout could get over this speed bump. Daaxe2k, Eastbourne.
A fine of roughly £50million, a slap on the wrist? High times down in Eastbourne, obviously. And in Washington DC around 1982, so I’m told.
When Villa Park is full, Aston Villa may seem like a big club, but with all the Premier League teams getting £60million each and Birmingham’s population not as rich as that of London, they can never have much financial clout without a rich owner. Chris Baker, Alton.
I don’t think the locals’ wealth is the issue here, Chris. It is not as if London’s clubs are bankrolled by the citizens of Highgate or Barnes. Arsenal are owned by an American, Chelsea by a Russian, Tottenham Hotspur by a tax exile who never sets foot inside the place, while West Ham United’s owners are the exception, not the rule. And where does West Ham vice-chairman Karren Brady live? Birmingham. The nice part, obviously.
Financial fair play is in principle is a good idea. It's hugely unfair that some clubs spend what they don't have yet others attempt to balance the books. Supporting Watford has been hugely amusing since our take over by the Pozzo family, who have been in football for years, own two clubs that are in their respective top leagues while massively overachieving and managing to make a profit – something few in this country ever achieve. Martin Samuel said we were the worst thing to happen to English football. Funny that, surely a club that is actually reducing its debt and is building a sustainable business model on and off the pitch shouldn’t be frowned upon? Teams like Cardiff City get promoted when £28million in debt and that's acceptable? Rob Seymour, Watford.
How is it sustainable if the players aren’t your players? Watford’s owners used the loan system in such an extreme way that both the Football League and Premier League introduced regulatory changes to stop it happening again. And this is your way forward? I sincerely do not care about debt as long as it is covered by the owner, and not loaned to the club. If a wealthy man wants to invest in football, and try to build his business in what is considered a very conventional way in other industries, what is the problem? Cardiff’s debt is covered by Premier League parachute payments and as long as Vincent Tan is providing investment as a gift, not a loan, I’m happy. Watford’s player ownership issues are bad for competition and, long term, bad for the club because it negates the need to develop young players through a local academy. It needed to be stopped, and I’m glad it was.
Aston Villa are overpriced. Philip, Merseyside.
The price is falling all the time, Philip. I doubt if Randy Lerner will get much return on his investment, either.
Waiting game: Villa boss Paul Lambert (left) and assistant Roy Keane (centre) are continuing work as normal
As a Manchester City fan I've got more reason to be anti-FFP than most, but to blame it for Randy Lerner being unable to sell Aston Villa is a bit simplistic. With the right people on board Villa would become a reasonably successful club again but why would anyone want to pump a shed load of money into them just to be reasonably successful? As Sheikh Mansour knows, to transform an average team into an elite team takes a whole lot of cash. Unless you have unlimited finance and your objective more concerns image than profit, buyers for clubs will be few and far between. David, Manchester.
Sort of my point, really, David.
Supporting Aston Villa is as bad as it gets for a supporter. OK we haven't been relegated but, on this trajectory, it's not a matter of if but when. We’ve had three very lucky escapes, we can't sell the club and have an owner who will not invest. What is the point? Unless you support a team already in the elite, why bother? I have a dream of seeing Villa win the league, but that probably won't happen now. This goes for Everton, Newcastle United and Sunderland fans, too. Our clubs have missed the boat and unless FFP is thrown out we're all just also-rans. The Facehead, Newquay.
I totally agree with you. Supporters need to have dreams and FFP takes these away and locks in stone those at the top. I'm glad my team Manchester City is up there, but wouldn’t moan at any other club that gets our good fortune. FFP is just the greed of the big clubs. MCFC OK, Manchester.
The fear with Aston Villa, correctly identified here, is that all these near misses have an inevitable conclusion. Football has long been dominated by a small number of elite clubs, but below the dream lived on in the combination of good management and owner investment. As half of that package had effectively been outlawed, what chance do those outside the elite now have? I can see how it must feel like a struggle at times to support a club knowing there is little chance of a change of fortune. The idea that fans have only ‘come to see United’ or some other elite band of superstars sticks in the throat. Increasingly, however, it will ring true. If your own team is not permitted to win, match day becomes about the opposition and whether their stars put on a show. How sad.
Defiant: Manchester City broke FFP rules but that hasn't stopped them spending big on the likes of Fernando
Recruit: City signed Eliaquim Mangala for £32million, to become the most expensive defender in British football
Earlier this year Barcelona were in breach of transfer rules, yet they then bought a player for a club record fee of £75million. Financial fair play my arse. Rocksteady, United Kingdom.
I know, strange isn’t it? Almost as if there was one rule for the rich and another for the…
The FFP concept is about as useful as UEFA’s Golden Goal and will go the same way in several years. True financial fair play would be equal TV distribution and revenue sharing. TruthWarrior, United Kingdom.
And regulations that are tailored to the specific circumstances of each country, so that the fact many clubs in France and Germany receive state aid for building projects could be taken into account, much like the relationship between Real Madrid and the local government. UEFA thought this too complex to implement. Pure sloth, in other words.
I'm not averse to what FFP is trying to achieve, but it's too late to bring it in now. It should have been implemented before clubs started becoming too powerful and the only solution now is a European Super League. JC, London.
I wrote a short while ago that I thought it would happen sooner than any of us imagined. I still think that, but maybe the motivation will come from unexpected quarters. How long will the rest of Germany tolerate living under the boot of Bayern Munich before they realise the consequence of FFP and press for reform? Maybe it will be this push from the ranks below that helps forms the continental super league?
Up top: Chelsea signed another big-money striker in Diego Costa, from Atletico Madrid for £32million
New boy: Paris Saint-Germain spent £50million on David Luiz despite breaching FFP regulations
I wouldn't mind the big clubs going into a European super league. It would be interesting to see how it got on. Do you remember rugby union turning professional and the RFU signing their television rights exclusively? The rest of the home nations then refused to play England and in the end they had to back down and share their TV deal around. Even TV realised it was the Six Nations they wanted all along, not just one big team. Pedro, Merseyside.
The other problem for all of these elite clubs in a European super league is that somebody has to come 14th. They are not used to that type of finish at Manchester United. Well, not since David Moyes left anyway.
Aston Villa is in an undesirable area for millionaires, the stadium is very old and difficult to modernise. It is also difficult to attract top players. Clubs such as Queens Park Rangers or West Ham can still do that because the stars will take a step down for a massive load of cash and the chance to live in London. Manager T, Cardiff.
There are plenty of millionaires in Sutton Coldfield and Solihull which is only few miles away from Villa Park. And the stadium is old? Three parts of it have been done up or rebuilt since the late nineties and only the North Stand needs improvement. Cardiff is hardly desirable compared to some parts of West Midlands. Bronson79, Solihull.
And yet Cardiff City attracted Vincent Tan. So it isn’t only location, location, location with football clubs. Look at Manchester City. They weren’t even the biggest team in Manchester when Sheikh Mansour took over. The owner does not have to buy a flat around the corner from the main stand anyway. Randy Lerner’s English residence was in Chelsea. Ed Woodward of Manchester United has a London home, as well as one in the north. I doubt if Mike Ashley is planning to move permanently to Tyneside. The player issue is a genuine one and London certainly holds more appeal to the overseas visitor. Yet even that attitude is changing from the days when all roads led to Chelsea. It is not as if Manchester City are struggling to sign foreign players.
Big spender: Cardiff City attracted a successful bid from Malaysian billionaire Vincent Tan (second from left)
You may be right about Aston Villa from a British point of view, but the reality is there are hardly any foreign fan bases for the club at the moment, and that makes its acquisition less attractive. I think the asking price is still too high and the expected return on investment is minimal. You would have to pump in a lot more in just to remain in the Premier League. Fullbackstriker, London.
I’m not sure Chelsea and Manchester City had the foreign fan base before their recent success, either. These are not the most sophisticated markets. They like winners, and lack the loyalty of domestic audiences. You may be a lifelong devotee of Brentford over here, for instance, but who do you follow in Spain? It probably won’t be Rayo Vallecano. If Aston Villa were to rise to the top, they would draw a crowd abroad. The name alone captures the imagination. As I mentioned in the column there is a French pop group called Aston Villa because that title is unusual and has allure, just as there are English equivalents in St Etienne, Boca Juniors and Kaiser Chiefs. In fact, I was going to upload Aston Villa’s rather storming version of J’Aime Regarder Les Filles but I can only find the live take and it’s not the same. So, instead, here’s Boca Juniors.
I don’t pity Aston Villa at all, in fact I hope they go down. They literally dug their own grave this window. The team of manager Paul Lambert, with Roy Keane as his assistant, plus Philippe Senderos, Kieran Richardson and Joe Cole is a recipe for relegation. Cole will be out injured for four months by September, Lambert and Keane will come to blows at the training ground, Senderos will score at least seven own goals and relegation will be confirmed by end of March. Bonoko7, Salford.
No, they didn’t literally dig their own graves this summer, Bono, because then they would have, physically, mined a six foot hole in the ground and prepared to jump in it. They metaphorically dug their own graves. Metaphorically. That’s the word you need. Quite what signing Senderos means metaphorically is anyone’s guess. Perhaps that feeling when you wake up after a heavy night with a fleeting recollection of having done something quite terrible but without the mental capacity to recall what it was – although the words ‘staple gun tattoo’ are inexplicably lodged in your head.
FFP would have worked in the eighties but now the gap between the top clubs and the rest due to the Champions league and consistent success creating a worldwide glory hunting fan base and huge revenues, is just too large to bridge. Freddie LS, London.
Unfortunately, Fred, a lot of Michel Platini’s ideas are stuck in the eighties. Sometimes that works – moving the Champions League final back to Saturday night – on other occasions it does not. You are correct, a form of FFP might have been effective when the margins were smaller, but now with the Champions League and television revenue plus the rise of the super clubs, all it does is destroy competition.
Spot on again on FFP and also worth checking out Simon Barnes in The Times on the same subject – two of the best sports journalists this country has ever produced. Correction, the two best. GeorgeandJane64, Kenilworth.
Stuck in the past: UEFA president Michel Platini has failed to develop a sustainable FFP plan
How very sweet G and J. You are too kind. I’m in very good company there, although if Simon took over this column you would be listening to an awful lot of Bob Dylan. I certainly think The Times have made a huge mistake getting rid of him because Simon’s was a unique voice in that, or any, newspaper and there are very few of them about. On the subject of FFP, however, there is only one difference between him and me: it’s called seven years. (I know. Miaow.)
The mini-tragedy of what has happened at Southampton this summer underlines beautifully the reality of FFP and the sheer hypocrisy of the elite clubs who brokered it. Southampton followed the plan prescribed ad nauseum by Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal, attempting to go about things the right way, growing organically. Their reward? To have all their best players poached by exactly those clubs with Luke Shaw, Adam Lallana, Rickie Lambert and Dejan Lovren following the path already trodden by Theo Walcott and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, while Morgan Schneiderlin angles to join them. Whilst I have some sympathy for Lerner, I have none for people like Bill Kenwright, who shamelessly signed up to the domestic version of FFP, and in an instant denied Everton’s supporters the chance to enjoy the ride of a lifetime, similar to that enjoyed by followers of another club that plays in blue in the north-west. Johnny B, Exeter.
Spot on, John, even if I think the positives around Kenwright’s tenure far outweigh that ill judgement, Actually, I was very surprised that Everton voted for FFP while trying to find a seller, and felt sure Bill had spoken against it in the past. I don’t know what changed his mind. I know Lerner and Villa were opposed, and Southampton, Swansea City and West Bromwich Albion. The dummies were West Ham, who voted yes with the move to the Olympic Stadium looming, and the biggest hypocrites were Chelsea. At least Manchester City didn’t try to up the drawbridge.
Surpassing expectation: Bill Kenwright's (left) positive moves at Everton far outweigh his ill judgment
FFP seems to work in Germany. Ankle to a Stone, Billericay.
No, the competition in that league seems to be duller than ever. If you like Bayern Munich to win every season with just Borussia Dortmund just buzzing around until their players are harvested then you're welcome to it. Supersonic, London.
Yes, in so far as it protects Munich and to a lesser extent Dortmund. No other clubs can compete. The existing elite wanted to remain so without spending in line with new investors. In fact, in any other industry the rules of FFP would be illegal and fines would be levied against those trying to stop commercial competition. Blue Eye, Manchester.
FFP works in Germany? No it doesn't. The richest club, Bayern Munich, bailed out Borussia Dortmund in recent years. The finances of German football are very murky. Luke, Portsmouth.
If you understood anything at all about FFP, Ankle, you'd know your comment is ludicrous. FFP works for Bayern the same way it works for Manchester United, the smaller clubs are as hampered by it as Aston Villa and any potential new owner. LittleHelper, Boston.
In the past five years have Bayern Munich have finished top four every season and Dortmund, Schalke and Bayer Leverkusen have appeared four times each. So a quartet are dominating and no one really has a regular chance of breaking in. It's just as bad in this country, and worse in Spain. Ivanitch, United Kingdom.
If the same team winning the trophy every season is your idea of working, I suppose Germany works. Bill, Barnsley.
FFP keeps Bayern at the top with the rest of the Bundesliga having no hope of ever challenging them. A one team league is totally against the interests of the game. Just look at Scotland. Jimbo, United Kingdom.
Shall not be moved: Germany's Bundesliga has a dinstinct top four, including Bayer Leverkusen
I probably should have stopped that sooner, but I was lost in a reverie in which we all got together and stormed the barricades at UEFA. If ever you’re up for it, lads, I’m often free on Fridays. Anyway, many thanks to Ivanitch for spotting something I had not, which is that Germany has now developed a top four elite almost as settled as our Premier League. I knew Munich were golden and Dortmund typically strong most years, but I had not noticed that Schalke and Leverkusen complete an increasingly dominant quartet. Ivanitch is right. Dortmund have made the top four in four of five seasons, and came fifth in 2009-10, as have Leverkusen who came fifth in 2011-12. Of the Bundesliga’s big four, only Schalke have finished outside the top five since 2009-10, falling to 14th in 2010-11. Borussia Monchengladbach, Hannover 96 and Werder Bremen have broken into that group for one campaign each but have not been able to sustain the challenge and in the last two seasons Germany’s top four has not changed as the benefits of FFP and Champions League money take hold.
How have Everton managed it, then, Mr Samuel? Do show us your award-winning analysis demonstrating that Bill Kenwright has outspent Randy Lerner to propel Everton into the top six last season, competing for a Champions League place until the last eight games? Lerner tried pumping in £200million and didn't make it, so is now trying to get his money back. Your claims don't stand up to rigorous analysis. Rtj1211, London.
What, the rigorous analysis that overlooks the fact that last season Everton had £28million striker Romelu Lukaku on loan for nothing, plus at least two other valuable loan acquisitions in Gareth Barry and Gerard Deulofeu who had influence on their campaign without appear on the transfer ledger. Perfectly within the rules, but it would have taken their £16.5million transfer profit far nearer Villa’s £16.5million transfer loss in 2013-14, had Everton made signings not loans. I doubt if this analysis will win too many awards though. They don’t hand prizes out for the blindingly obvious. And on the subject of awards…
Everton had a lot of players on loan last season, and an excellent manager who needs to be cherished. Roberto Martinez is a guy who fully punches his weight with limited resources. Who knows what he could do if he was well financed? The FFP rules place Everton in a very tenuous position and the prospect of a club like Real Madrid or Barcelona one day looking to Martinez is frightening, but probable. Somewhere Blue, Manchester.
Martinez did an outstanding job at Everton last season and it is good that the club have been able to reward him with added investment this summer.
Martin is always banging on about FFP, but he never really explains what would be his sensible alternative. Without FPP, we could have a Russian businessman buy a club and double Premier League wages every year. When Chelsea started buying titles, wages doubled, when Man City started buying titles, wages doubled. This in turn forces every club to push up ticket prices in a hopeless attempt to keep players. The only answer cannot be to sell your souls to a Russian businessman, but Martin Samuel seems comfortable with that. MC, London.
Very, if the competition improves, which it undoubtedly has as a result of new money. And I have always made clear my alternate universe. Owners provide investment through gifts not loans, and Champions League revenue is distributed throughout the league, not just to a quartet or, worst of all, a single qualifier. Actually, the most inflationary transfers this summer took Ross McCormack to Fulham and Luke Shaw to Manchester United. Rio Ferdinand was another that changed the transfer benchmark, as did David de Gea. Notice anything? It isn’t just new money that has proved inflationary; old money is perfectly capable of hiking the market up, too, And don’t forget who started it all with their threatened breakaway league three decades ago. Clue: it wasn’t the Russians.
On the rise: One of the most inflationary transfers this summer took Ross McCormack to Fulham
Change the benchmark: Luke Shaw's £27million moved from Southampton to Mancheser United
Arsenal, back in the early nineties, spent money they didn't have to keep up with Manchester United and Liverpool. Tony Adams even mentioned in an interview that Danny Fiszman put £50million of his own cash in before the Arsene Wenger days, and that is probably the reason why they are still involved at the top. Antd.Antd, London.
We really should thank Tony for that little revelation last year because whenever some tedious Arsenal fan gets on his high horse about Manchester City, we can point out that the modern edition of his club was built on identical principles of owner investment; although now Arsenal are established in the Champions League elite they, of course, want this approach outlawed.
Why doesn't Martin Samuel ever reference Portsmouth or West Ham when the subject of clubs spending beyond their means comes up? For him, it is purely about buying a position at the top of the table, and there are no other negative impacts. What if the same happened at Aston Villa, all of a sudden the biggest club in England's second city is staring down the barrel. But it was a fun couple of seasons, wasn't it? KV10, United Kingdom.
Portsmouth got in trouble because the owner loaned money, then wanted it back. I have never advocated that form of growth. West Ham were owned by a bank, and the bank went skint, so again no regulation would have prevented that fall. As for Villa staring down a barrel – ask Villa fans; even with all your protectionist rules, they are staring down a barrel. They just haven’t had the fun part.
Fear: Aston Villa are staring down the barrel, but the situations at Portsmouth and West Ham were different
Aston Villa is a massive club, and with the right investment, or with enough effort, it can rival any in Europe. It makes one wonder how clubs like Atletico Madrid and Borussia Dortmund, who were on the same level as Villa a few years back, have grown. It's down to the system at the club. Sheikhspeare, Manchester.
Dortmund were established members of the European elite when the Champions League began, fell on hard times, and have now recovered, so I think they had a stronger basis than Villa. Atletico Madrid’s form last season was little short of astonishing and full credit to Diego Simeone for that; it did not stop their ranks being plundered by the super-rich this summer, though. I see some comparison with Villa but not much. It would take an exceptional set of circumstances for Villa to win the league – the arrival of a managerial genius or a nucleus of youth players that are immune to the pull of established elite clubs or the unsettling influence of avaricious agents – and even then some owner investment would be required. Atletico are massively in debt, don’t forget, and Dortmund had to be bailed out by Munich. The days when success was simply a matter of talent and effort are long gone, I’m afraid.
If some owner wants to spend a billion and another owner zero, then let them. JDL, Charleston.
People will regard your view as simplistic, JDL, but it happens to be mine, too.
Gone are the dreams that my club, Sheffield United, will ever be able to compete at the top of the Premiership. I know we are a long way from that now, but it seems even further away after the events of this summer. The best we can ever hope for is to be like Southampton - build a successful team over many years and then as soon as we get any glory the big six will dismantle us and back down we go. It is not just owners that can get disillusioned - what about the fans? How must it feel to be a Southampton supporter right now, seeing the side torn apart? Bladesam, Sheffield.
I completely agree, Sam. I think it is shameful that a cabal of wealthy clubs and UEFA have decided to hit the pause button on football at a specific moment in time. Events at Southampton have shown the reality, too. How can any aspiring mid-table club progress in this climate, let alone one such as yours that is starting from much further back?
Struggle: The situation at Ronald Koeman's Southampton proves it is difficult to progress in this climate
You reference my Everton in this article as also being for sale under the clown Bill Kenwright. The reality is he will never sell the club. He claims it is for sale but the truth is he has such an unrealistic view of its actual value nobody will ever touch it. I wouldn't trust Bill Kenwright in Poundland never mind with anything substantial - the man cocks up everything he touches. Col Nathan R Jessup, United Kingdom.
Take Everton away from Bill Kenwright and he would be the most powerful theatrical impresario in the world; take Bill Kenwright away from your Everton and you’d be skint and probably relegated. He is a wonderful chairman, whose love for the club shines through. Just the appointment of David Moyes, followed by Roberto Martinez, places him in a different league to most in terms of his football acumen.
So this is how the supposed greatest football league in the world works? A club is put up for sale and everyone hopes some rich Arab or Russian will come along. He is then supposed to put a few hundred million of his hard earned cash into use buying overpriced foreign players. In the meantime there is no young local talent being groomed because the guy is just in it to recoup his losses and make as much money as he can. Then along comes Sky and says you must play on Tuesday at 10pm as there is a slot free. What about the supporters? Remember them? Don’t worry, they don’t matter. Yes, the Premier League really is great. Hammy, Ayr.
Ayr have a team, too, Hammy if you would rather watch that. United, they are called. Third tier. Next match away to Stirling Albion. I think there are still tickets available. There usually are, judging by the 802 that attended their last meeting.
No person who is smart enough in business to make the type of money needed to buy a Premier League club is going to be dumb enough to massively invest in an industry where not only can regulators act arbitrarily, but will also penalise owners for investing in their asset to make it better or more productive. FFP will hit the fans the hardest. Anyone else notice that Arsenal, the beacon of FFP in Britain, also sell the most expensive tickets? The only way that FFP could truly be fair is if all clubs face the same fixed wage caps as exist in American leagues. Platini's FFP will be very similar to Ronald Reagan's trickle-down economics, the rich and powerful will just get more so and the rest will watch the gap grow, because only the top clubs will see significant revenue growth without outside investment. BarryBwana, Canada.
Too true, Barry. As was pointed out earlier, FFP might have worked some decades back before the age of the Champions League and the global fanbase, but not now.
Midlanders: Some believe if Villa were based in London, they would find a buyer sooner, but location isn't all
If Aston Villa were based in London a queue of billionaires would be keen to purchase them. Dene T, Sutton Coldfield.
There wouldn't be a queue of potential buyers, even if it was in London. What's the point if you're not allowed to invest in the club to improve its position? Iglooeaters, Manchester.
I agree. This is about opportunity, not location.
It is sad to see a great team like Aston Villa suffer. They won a European Cup before Chelsea and Manchester City knew where Europe was. Gofar67, Liverpool.
There is nothing more irritating than bad history. You hear a lot of it in football. So here are the facts. Aston Villa won the European Cup in 1982, 11 years after the first European trophy won by Chelsea, the European Cup-Winners Cup in 1971, and 12 years behind Manchester City, who won the European Cup-Winners Cup in 1970. By 1982, Chelsea had played five seasons in Europe, starting with the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in 1958. They would actually have been the first English team to enter Europe, had Football League secretary Alan Hardaker not pressurised the club into withdrawing from the European Cup in 1955. City, meanwhile, had played seven European seasons by the time Villa won the European Cup, their first in 1968. So far from Chelsea and City being newcomers to Europe, they were among this country’s first entrants and champions. Still, presumptuous errors like that can happen if all you know is modern football and all you listen to are stupid chants about clubs having no history. Mr Gofar probably doesn’t even realise that City and Chelsea both won European competitions before Liverpool lifted the UEFA Cup in 1973. Maybe he should ask his dad. Until next time.
He'd have had no trouble flogging it 5 years ago.Astley Lad said:Always enjoy a Martin Samuel article, even if I don't agree always with him and particularly enjoyed his final put down regarding European competition history, can't imagine either Custis coming up with that one!. Have to say he has the wrong end of the stick with this article in my opinion. FFP isn't the reason Lerner can't sell Villa. His potential market is tiny, think about the type of people who would want to buy a Premiership football club, then who would have the 150/200 million Lerner wants and then be prepared to lash out several hundred million just to get it running right. Ok, once you've spent your first half billion you may then decide the way forward is to reach for the top and then be thwarted by FFP but that's a long way down the line. If your going into football trying to make a bob or two, a la FSG and the Glazers, then Villa isn't going to to do it. If your going into it for the love of Aston Villa, then the chances are you haven't got a billion quid to wank off anyway so FFP is irrelevant.
George Hannah said:for those who can't or don't have the inclination to open Daily Mail links
Below the elite there was a dream of success, but FFP has destroyed competition and your hopes... you will never be up there with Man United, Man City and Chelsea
Randy Lerner still can't find an owner for Premier League ever-presents Aston Villa, despite lowering his price
It is now more difficult for clubs like Villa and Southampton to be successful
Football has always been dominated by a small number of elite clubs
But they still had dreams of success with good management and investment
Now teams are being outlawed with FFP, what chance do they have?
The Bundesliga's top four in the last two seasons has not changed with Champions League money and FFP taking hold
Also, The idea that fans only come to see big clubs if your own team is not permitted to win is even more true now
Signings like Luke Shaw £27million move to Manchester United was one of the most inflationary transfers of the summer
By MARTIN SAMUEL - DEBATE
PUBLISHED: 07:56, 14 August 2014 | UPDATED: 15:55, 14 August 2014
Before I left for the summer holiday – very nice, thanks for asking – I wrote a column considering Randy Lerner’s failure to find a buyer for Aston Villa this summer, and the role played in this stagnation by financial fair play. Almost four weeks on and still no new owner. You can read the column here, and the reaction below. Shall we get started?
Moving on? Aston Villa owner Randy Lerner has been actively trying to sell the Premier League club
I don't know why owners would be put off. The slap on the wrist fine that Manchester City and Paris St Germain received is evidence that FFP isn't being enforced very strictly. Someone with enough financial clout could get over this speed bump. Daaxe2k, Eastbourne.
A fine of roughly £50million, a slap on the wrist? High times down in Eastbourne, obviously. And in Washington DC around 1982, so I’m told.
When Villa Park is full, Aston Villa may seem like a big club, but with all the Premier League teams getting £60million each and Birmingham’s population not as rich as that of London, they can never have much financial clout without a rich owner. Chris Baker, Alton.
I don’t think the locals’ wealth is the issue here, Chris. It is not as if London’s clubs are bankrolled by the citizens of Highgate or Barnes. Arsenal are owned by an American, Chelsea by a Russian, Tottenham Hotspur by a tax exile who never sets foot inside the place, while West Ham United’s owners are the exception, not the rule. And where does West Ham vice-chairman Karren Brady live? Birmingham. The nice part, obviously.
Financial fair play is in principle is a good idea. It's hugely unfair that some clubs spend what they don't have yet others attempt to balance the books. Supporting Watford has been hugely amusing since our take over by the Pozzo family, who have been in football for years, own two clubs that are in their respective top leagues while massively overachieving and managing to make a profit – something few in this country ever achieve. Martin Samuel said we were the worst thing to happen to English football. Funny that, surely a club that is actually reducing its debt and is building a sustainable business model on and off the pitch shouldn’t be frowned upon? Teams like Cardiff City get promoted when £28million in debt and that's acceptable? Rob Seymour, Watford.
How is it sustainable if the players aren’t your players? Watford’s owners used the loan system in such an extreme way that both the Football League and Premier League introduced regulatory changes to stop it happening again. And this is your way forward? I sincerely do not care about debt as long as it is covered by the owner, and not loaned to the club. If a wealthy man wants to invest in football, and try to build his business in what is considered a very conventional way in other industries, what is the problem? Cardiff’s debt is covered by Premier League parachute payments and as long as Vincent Tan is providing investment as a gift, not a loan, I’m happy. Watford’s player ownership issues are bad for competition and, long term, bad for the club because it negates the need to develop young players through a local academy. It needed to be stopped, and I’m glad it was.
Aston Villa are overpriced. Philip, Merseyside.
The price is falling all the time, Philip. I doubt if Randy Lerner will get much return on his investment, either.
Waiting game: Villa boss Paul Lambert (left) and assistant Roy Keane (centre) are continuing work as normal
As a Manchester City fan I've got more reason to be anti-FFP than most, but to blame it for Randy Lerner being unable to sell Aston Villa is a bit simplistic. With the right people on board Villa would become a reasonably successful club again but why would anyone want to pump a shed load of money into them just to be reasonably successful? As Sheikh Mansour knows, to transform an average team into an elite team takes a whole lot of cash. Unless you have unlimited finance and your objective more concerns image than profit, buyers for clubs will be few and far between. David, Manchester.
Sort of my point, really, David.
Supporting Aston Villa is as bad as it gets for a supporter. OK we haven't been relegated but, on this trajectory, it's not a matter of if but when. We’ve had three very lucky escapes, we can't sell the club and have an owner who will not invest. What is the point? Unless you support a team already in the elite, why bother? I have a dream of seeing Villa win the league, but that probably won't happen now. This goes for Everton, Newcastle United and Sunderland fans, too. Our clubs have missed the boat and unless FFP is thrown out we're all just also-rans. The Facehead, Newquay.
I totally agree with you. Supporters need to have dreams and FFP takes these away and locks in stone those at the top. I'm glad my team Manchester City is up there, but wouldn’t moan at any other club that gets our good fortune. FFP is just the greed of the big clubs. MCFC OK, Manchester.
The fear with Aston Villa, correctly identified here, is that all these near misses have an inevitable conclusion. Football has long been dominated by a small number of elite clubs, but below the dream lived on in the combination of good management and owner investment. As half of that package had effectively been outlawed, what chance do those outside the elite now have? I can see how it must feel like a struggle at times to support a club knowing there is little chance of a change of fortune. The idea that fans have only ‘come to see United’ or some other elite band of superstars sticks in the throat. Increasingly, however, it will ring true. If your own team is not permitted to win, match day becomes about the opposition and whether their stars put on a show. How sad.
Defiant: Manchester City broke FFP rules but that hasn't stopped them spending big on the likes of Fernando
Recruit: City signed Eliaquim Mangala for £32million, to become the most expensive defender in British football
Earlier this year Barcelona were in breach of transfer rules, yet they then bought a player for a club record fee of £75million. Financial fair play my arse. Rocksteady, United Kingdom.
I know, strange isn’t it? Almost as if there was one rule for the rich and another for the…
The FFP concept is about as useful as UEFA’s Golden Goal and will go the same way in several years. True financial fair play would be equal TV distribution and revenue sharing. TruthWarrior, United Kingdom.
And regulations that are tailored to the specific circumstances of each country, so that the fact many clubs in France and Germany receive state aid for building projects could be taken into account, much like the relationship between Real Madrid and the local government. UEFA thought this too complex to implement. Pure sloth, in other words.
I'm not averse to what FFP is trying to achieve, but it's too late to bring it in now. It should have been implemented before clubs started becoming too powerful and the only solution now is a European Super League. JC, London.
I wrote a short while ago that I thought it would happen sooner than any of us imagined. I still think that, but maybe the motivation will come from unexpected quarters. How long will the rest of Germany tolerate living under the boot of Bayern Munich before they realise the consequence of FFP and press for reform? Maybe it will be this push from the ranks below that helps forms the continental super league?
Up top: Chelsea signed another big-money striker in Diego Costa, from Atletico Madrid for £32million
New boy: Paris Saint-Germain spent £50million on David Luiz despite breaching FFP regulations
I wouldn't mind the big clubs going into a European super league. It would be interesting to see how it got on. Do you remember rugby union turning professional and the RFU signing their television rights exclusively? The rest of the home nations then refused to play England and in the end they had to back down and share their TV deal around. Even TV realised it was the Six Nations they wanted all along, not just one big team. Pedro, Merseyside.
The other problem for all of these elite clubs in a European super league is that somebody has to come 14th. They are not used to that type of finish at Manchester United. Well, not since David Moyes left anyway.
Aston Villa is in an undesirable area for millionaires, the stadium is very old and difficult to modernise. It is also difficult to attract top players. Clubs such as Queens Park Rangers or West Ham can still do that because the stars will take a step down for a massive load of cash and the chance to live in London. Manager T, Cardiff.
There are plenty of millionaires in Sutton Coldfield and Solihull which is only few miles away from Villa Park. And the stadium is old? Three parts of it have been done up or rebuilt since the late nineties and only the North Stand needs improvement. Cardiff is hardly desirable compared to some parts of West Midlands. Bronson79, Solihull.
And yet Cardiff City attracted Vincent Tan. So it isn’t only location, location, location with football clubs. Look at Manchester City. They weren’t even the biggest team in Manchester when Sheikh Mansour took over. The owner does not have to buy a flat around the corner from the main stand anyway. Randy Lerner’s English residence was in Chelsea. Ed Woodward of Manchester United has a London home, as well as one in the north. I doubt if Mike Ashley is planning to move permanently to Tyneside. The player issue is a genuine one and London certainly holds more appeal to the overseas visitor. Yet even that attitude is changing from the days when all roads led to Chelsea. It is not as if Manchester City are struggling to sign foreign players.
Big spender: Cardiff City attracted a successful bid from Malaysian billionaire Vincent Tan (second from left)
You may be right about Aston Villa from a British point of view, but the reality is there are hardly any foreign fan bases for the club at the moment, and that makes its acquisition less attractive. I think the asking price is still too high and the expected return on investment is minimal. You would have to pump in a lot more in just to remain in the Premier League. Fullbackstriker, London.
I’m not sure Chelsea and Manchester City had the foreign fan base before their recent success, either. These are not the most sophisticated markets. They like winners, and lack the loyalty of domestic audiences. You may be a lifelong devotee of Brentford over here, for instance, but who do you follow in Spain? It probably won’t be Rayo Vallecano. If Aston Villa were to rise to the top, they would draw a crowd abroad. The name alone captures the imagination. As I mentioned in the column there is a French pop group called Aston Villa because that title is unusual and has allure, just as there are English equivalents in St Etienne, Boca Juniors and Kaiser Chiefs. In fact, I was going to upload Aston Villa’s rather storming version of J’Aime Regarder Les Filles but I can only find the live take and it’s not the same. So, instead, here’s Boca Juniors.
I don’t pity Aston Villa at all, in fact I hope they go down. They literally dug their own grave this window. The team of manager Paul Lambert, with Roy Keane as his assistant, plus Philippe Senderos, Kieran Richardson and Joe Cole is a recipe for relegation. Cole will be out injured for four months by September, Lambert and Keane will come to blows at the training ground, Senderos will score at least seven own goals and relegation will be confirmed by end of March. Bonoko7, Salford.
No, they didn’t literally dig their own graves this summer, Bono, because then they would have, physically, mined a six foot hole in the ground and prepared to jump in it. They metaphorically dug their own graves. Metaphorically. That’s the word you need. Quite what signing Senderos means metaphorically is anyone’s guess. Perhaps that feeling when you wake up after a heavy night with a fleeting recollection of having done something quite terrible but without the mental capacity to recall what it was – although the words ‘staple gun tattoo’ are inexplicably lodged in your head.
FFP would have worked in the eighties but now the gap between the top clubs and the rest due to the Champions league and consistent success creating a worldwide glory hunting fan base and huge revenues, is just too large to bridge. Freddie LS, London.
Unfortunately, Fred, a lot of Michel Platini’s ideas are stuck in the eighties. Sometimes that works – moving the Champions League final back to Saturday night – on other occasions it does not. You are correct, a form of FFP might have been effective when the margins were smaller, but now with the Champions League and television revenue plus the rise of the super clubs, all it does is destroy competition.
Spot on again on FFP and also worth checking out Simon Barnes in The Times on the same subject – two of the best sports journalists this country has ever produced. Correction, the two best. GeorgeandJane64, Kenilworth.
Stuck in the past: UEFA president Michel Platini has failed to develop a sustainable FFP plan
How very sweet G and J. You are too kind. I’m in very good company there, although if Simon took over this column you would be listening to an awful lot of Bob Dylan. I certainly think The Times have made a huge mistake getting rid of him because Simon’s was a unique voice in that, or any, newspaper and there are very few of them about. On the subject of FFP, however, there is only one difference between him and me: it’s called seven years. (I know. Miaow.)
The mini-tragedy of what has happened at Southampton this summer underlines beautifully the reality of FFP and the sheer hypocrisy of the elite clubs who brokered it. Southampton followed the plan prescribed ad nauseum by Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal, attempting to go about things the right way, growing organically. Their reward? To have all their best players poached by exactly those clubs with Luke Shaw, Adam Lallana, Rickie Lambert and Dejan Lovren following the path already trodden by Theo Walcott and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, while Morgan Schneiderlin angles to join them. Whilst I have some sympathy for Lerner, I have none for people like Bill Kenwright, who shamelessly signed up to the domestic version of FFP, and in an instant denied Everton’s supporters the chance to enjoy the ride of a lifetime, similar to that enjoyed by followers of another club that plays in blue in the north-west. Johnny B, Exeter.
Spot on, John, even if I think the positives around Kenwright’s tenure far outweigh that ill judgement, Actually, I was very surprised that Everton voted for FFP while trying to find a seller, and felt sure Bill had spoken against it in the past. I don’t know what changed his mind. I know Lerner and Villa were opposed, and Southampton, Swansea City and West Bromwich Albion. The dummies were West Ham, who voted yes with the move to the Olympic Stadium looming, and the biggest hypocrites were Chelsea. At least Manchester City didn’t try to up the drawbridge.
Surpassing expectation: Bill Kenwright's (left) positive moves at Everton far outweigh his ill judgment
FFP seems to work in Germany. Ankle to a Stone, Billericay.
No, the competition in that league seems to be duller than ever. If you like Bayern Munich to win every season with just Borussia Dortmund just buzzing around until their players are harvested then you're welcome to it. Supersonic, London.
Yes, in so far as it protects Munich and to a lesser extent Dortmund. No other clubs can compete. The existing elite wanted to remain so without spending in line with new investors. In fact, in any other industry the rules of FFP would be illegal and fines would be levied against those trying to stop commercial competition. Blue Eye, Manchester.
FFP works in Germany? No it doesn't. The richest club, Bayern Munich, bailed out Borussia Dortmund in recent years. The finances of German football are very murky. Luke, Portsmouth.
If you understood anything at all about FFP, Ankle, you'd know your comment is ludicrous. FFP works for Bayern the same way it works for Manchester United, the smaller clubs are as hampered by it as Aston Villa and any potential new owner. LittleHelper, Boston.
In the past five years have Bayern Munich have finished top four every season and Dortmund, Schalke and Bayer Leverkusen have appeared four times each. So a quartet are dominating and no one really has a regular chance of breaking in. It's just as bad in this country, and worse in Spain. Ivanitch, United Kingdom.
If the same team winning the trophy every season is your idea of working, I suppose Germany works. Bill, Barnsley.
FFP keeps Bayern at the top with the rest of the Bundesliga having no hope of ever challenging them. A one team league is totally against the interests of the game. Just look at Scotland. Jimbo, United Kingdom.
Shall not be moved: Germany's Bundesliga has a dinstinct top four, including Bayer Leverkusen
I probably should have stopped that sooner, but I was lost in a reverie in which we all got together and stormed the barricades at UEFA. If ever you’re up for it, lads, I’m often free on Fridays. Anyway, many thanks to Ivanitch for spotting something I had not, which is that Germany has now developed a top four elite almost as settled as our Premier League. I knew Munich were golden and Dortmund typically strong most years, but I had not noticed that Schalke and Leverkusen complete an increasingly dominant quartet. Ivanitch is right. Dortmund have made the top four in four of five seasons, and came fifth in 2009-10, as have Leverkusen who came fifth in 2011-12. Of the Bundesliga’s big four, only Schalke have finished outside the top five since 2009-10, falling to 14th in 2010-11. Borussia Monchengladbach, Hannover 96 and Werder Bremen have broken into that group for one campaign each but have not been able to sustain the challenge and in the last two seasons Germany’s top four has not changed as the benefits of FFP and Champions League money take hold.
How have Everton managed it, then, Mr Samuel? Do show us your award-winning analysis demonstrating that Bill Kenwright has outspent Randy Lerner to propel Everton into the top six last season, competing for a Champions League place until the last eight games? Lerner tried pumping in £200million and didn't make it, so is now trying to get his money back. Your claims don't stand up to rigorous analysis. Rtj1211, London.
What, the rigorous analysis that overlooks the fact that last season Everton had £28million striker Romelu Lukaku on loan for nothing, plus at least two other valuable loan acquisitions in Gareth Barry and Gerard Deulofeu who had influence on their campaign without appear on the transfer ledger. Perfectly within the rules, but it would have taken their £16.5million transfer profit far nearer Villa’s £16.5million transfer loss in 2013-14, had Everton made signings not loans. I doubt if this analysis will win too many awards though. They don’t hand prizes out for the blindingly obvious. And on the subject of awards…
Everton had a lot of players on loan last season, and an excellent manager who needs to be cherished. Roberto Martinez is a guy who fully punches his weight with limited resources. Who knows what he could do if he was well financed? The FFP rules place Everton in a very tenuous position and the prospect of a club like Real Madrid or Barcelona one day looking to Martinez is frightening, but probable. Somewhere Blue, Manchester.
Martinez did an outstanding job at Everton last season and it is good that the club have been able to reward him with added investment this summer.
Martin is always banging on about FFP, but he never really explains what would be his sensible alternative. Without FPP, we could have a Russian businessman buy a club and double Premier League wages every year. When Chelsea started buying titles, wages doubled, when Man City started buying titles, wages doubled. This in turn forces every club to push up ticket prices in a hopeless attempt to keep players. The only answer cannot be to sell your souls to a Russian businessman, but Martin Samuel seems comfortable with that. MC, London.
Very, if the competition improves, which it undoubtedly has as a result of new money. And I have always made clear my alternate universe. Owners provide investment through gifts not loans, and Champions League revenue is distributed throughout the league, not just to a quartet or, worst of all, a single qualifier. Actually, the most inflationary transfers this summer took Ross McCormack to Fulham and Luke Shaw to Manchester United. Rio Ferdinand was another that changed the transfer benchmark, as did David de Gea. Notice anything? It isn’t just new money that has proved inflationary; old money is perfectly capable of hiking the market up, too, And don’t forget who started it all with their threatened breakaway league three decades ago. Clue: it wasn’t the Russians.
On the rise: One of the most inflationary transfers this summer took Ross McCormack to Fulham
Change the benchmark: Luke Shaw's £27million moved from Southampton to Mancheser United
Arsenal, back in the early nineties, spent money they didn't have to keep up with Manchester United and Liverpool. Tony Adams even mentioned in an interview that Danny Fiszman put £50million of his own cash in before the Arsene Wenger days, and that is probably the reason why they are still involved at the top. Antd.Antd, London.
We really should thank Tony for that little revelation last year because whenever some tedious Arsenal fan gets on his high horse about Manchester City, we can point out that the modern edition of his club was built on identical principles of owner investment; although now Arsenal are established in the Champions League elite they, of course, want this approach outlawed.
Why doesn't Martin Samuel ever reference Portsmouth or West Ham when the subject of clubs spending beyond their means comes up? For him, it is purely about buying a position at the top of the table, and there are no other negative impacts. What if the same happened at Aston Villa, all of a sudden the biggest club in England's second city is staring down the barrel. But it was a fun couple of seasons, wasn't it? KV10, United Kingdom.
Portsmouth got in trouble because the owner loaned money, then wanted it back. I have never advocated that form of growth. West Ham were owned by a bank, and the bank went skint, so again no regulation would have prevented that fall. As for Villa staring down a barrel – ask Villa fans; even with all your protectionist rules, they are staring down a barrel. They just haven’t had the fun part.
Fear: Aston Villa are staring down the barrel, but the situations at Portsmouth and West Ham were different
Aston Villa is a massive club, and with the right investment, or with enough effort, it can rival any in Europe. It makes one wonder how clubs like Atletico Madrid and Borussia Dortmund, who were on the same level as Villa a few years back, have grown. It's down to the system at the club. Sheikhspeare, Manchester.
Dortmund were established members of the European elite when the Champions League began, fell on hard times, and have now recovered, so I think they had a stronger basis than Villa. Atletico Madrid’s form last season was little short of astonishing and full credit to Diego Simeone for that; it did not stop their ranks being plundered by the super-rich this summer, though. I see some comparison with Villa but not much. It would take an exceptional set of circumstances for Villa to win the league – the arrival of a managerial genius or a nucleus of youth players that are immune to the pull of established elite clubs or the unsettling influence of avaricious agents – and even then some owner investment would be required. Atletico are massively in debt, don’t forget, and Dortmund had to be bailed out by Munich. The days when success was simply a matter of talent and effort are long gone, I’m afraid.
If some owner wants to spend a billion and another owner zero, then let them. JDL, Charleston.
People will regard your view as simplistic, JDL, but it happens to be mine, too.
Gone are the dreams that my club, Sheffield United, will ever be able to compete at the top of the Premiership. I know we are a long way from that now, but it seems even further away after the events of this summer. The best we can ever hope for is to be like Southampton - build a successful team over many years and then as soon as we get any glory the big six will dismantle us and back down we go. It is not just owners that can get disillusioned - what about the fans? How must it feel to be a Southampton supporter right now, seeing the side torn apart? Bladesam, Sheffield.
I completely agree, Sam. I think it is shameful that a cabal of wealthy clubs and UEFA have decided to hit the pause button on football at a specific moment in time. Events at Southampton have shown the reality, too. How can any aspiring mid-table club progress in this climate, let alone one such as yours that is starting from much further back?
Struggle: The situation at Ronald Koeman's Southampton proves it is difficult to progress in this climate
You reference my Everton in this article as also being for sale under the clown Bill Kenwright. The reality is he will never sell the club. He claims it is for sale but the truth is he has such an unrealistic view of its actual value nobody will ever touch it. I wouldn't trust Bill Kenwright in Poundland never mind with anything substantial - the man cocks up everything he touches. Col Nathan R Jessup, United Kingdom.
Take Everton away from Bill Kenwright and he would be the most powerful theatrical impresario in the world; take Bill Kenwright away from your Everton and you’d be skint and probably relegated. He is a wonderful chairman, whose love for the club shines through. Just the appointment of David Moyes, followed by Roberto Martinez, places him in a different league to most in terms of his football acumen.
So this is how the supposed greatest football league in the world works? A club is put up for sale and everyone hopes some rich Arab or Russian will come along. He is then supposed to put a few hundred million of his hard earned cash into use buying overpriced foreign players. In the meantime there is no young local talent being groomed because the guy is just in it to recoup his losses and make as much money as he can. Then along comes Sky and says you must play on Tuesday at 10pm as there is a slot free. What about the supporters? Remember them? Don’t worry, they don’t matter. Yes, the Premier League really is great. Hammy, Ayr.
Ayr have a team, too, Hammy if you would rather watch that. United, they are called. Third tier. Next match away to Stirling Albion. I think there are still tickets available. There usually are, judging by the 802 that attended their last meeting.
No person who is smart enough in business to make the type of money needed to buy a Premier League club is going to be dumb enough to massively invest in an industry where not only can regulators act arbitrarily, but will also penalise owners for investing in their asset to make it better or more productive. FFP will hit the fans the hardest. Anyone else notice that Arsenal, the beacon of FFP in Britain, also sell the most expensive tickets? The only way that FFP could truly be fair is if all clubs face the same fixed wage caps as exist in American leagues. Platini's FFP will be very similar to Ronald Reagan's trickle-down economics, the rich and powerful will just get more so and the rest will watch the gap grow, because only the top clubs will see significant revenue growth without outside investment. BarryBwana, Canada.
Too true, Barry. As was pointed out earlier, FFP might have worked some decades back before the age of the Champions League and the global fanbase, but not now.
Midlanders: Some believe if Villa were based in London, they would find a buyer sooner, but location isn't all
If Aston Villa were based in London a queue of billionaires would be keen to purchase them. Dene T, Sutton Coldfield.
There wouldn't be a queue of potential buyers, even if it was in London. What's the point if you're not allowed to invest in the club to improve its position? Iglooeaters, Manchester.
I agree. This is about opportunity, not location.
It is sad to see a great team like Aston Villa suffer. They won a European Cup before Chelsea and Manchester City knew where Europe was. Gofar67, Liverpool.
There is nothing more irritating than bad history. You hear a lot of it in football. So here are the facts. Aston Villa won the European Cup in 1982, 11 years after the first European trophy won by Chelsea, the European Cup-Winners Cup in 1971, and 12 years behind Manchester City, who won the European Cup-Winners Cup in 1970. By 1982, Chelsea had played five seasons in Europe, starting with the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in 1958. They would actually have been the first English team to enter Europe, had Football League secretary Alan Hardaker not pressurised the club into withdrawing from the European Cup in 1955. City, meanwhile, had played seven European seasons by the time Villa won the European Cup, their first in 1968. So far from Chelsea and City being newcomers to Europe, they were among this country’s first entrants and champions. Still, presumptuous errors like that can happen if all you know is modern football and all you listen to are stupid chants about clubs having no history. Mr Gofar probably doesn’t even realise that City and Chelsea both won European competitions before Liverpool lifted the UEFA Cup in 1973. Maybe he should ask his dad. Until next time.
...for a season. 2 tops.sjk2008 said:In the shadows of the mighty Real Madrid & Barcelona, Atletico Madrid proved you can upset the cartel only last season. They were 60 seconds away from the Champions League too.
It only takes good management and a clever transfer policy to challenge.