Double Pivot

[ws01]

Okay, guess I should bust the bubble. There are 2 interconnected myths getting voiced here.

1. That the double pivot worked.
2. That Dihno was the reason it worked and it wouldn't with Gundogan.

Let me start with the first. The double pivot did not work. Yes we won the match. But this doesn mean the system worked.

Offensively, it was a drag. We created fewer chances. Defensively, we looked the same. Got little pressure (like was often the case last year) but can when the pressure came, we broke. Like we often did last year.

The only difference is Wolves didn't score 3 of their 4 clear chances. Something that would have happened last year. So in terms of reducing opportunities for the opposition it didn't do that. So it really didn't work.

2. The Fallacy that when Gundogan plays with Rodri, they do so as a double pivot. This was almost never the case ( I think it happened in one game I can remember). For the most part when Gundogan and Rodri played together, Gundogan was simply playing the 8. Which he isn't particularly good at.

That said, Gundogan ina real pivot would have looked probably very close this game, barring a few bad forward passes by Dihno. Like Dihno had in the game, Gundog would have had very few tackles, a couple of interceptions (possibly more), and a ton more passes ( more sideways and back).

But the results would have been similar, owning control of the game, but creating less than normal. And if Wolves failed to take 3 of their 4 chances. We'd have won just like we did.

Hate to be blunt like this, but you don't understand the game mate.

If you did, you'd fully realise just how good Fernandinho is and how important he has been for us.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

I waited rather impatiently for the day when Ferny could go back to where he plays best. He will put in a sterling (see what I did there?) performance playing anywhere but just one position sucks the very best out him.

 

[Craig]

If u look how Bayern play , double piot is the way to go. Even Barcelona is starting to play double 4-3-2-1

It gives u protection against Counter Attacks.

Not really when the ball is played over the top or down the channels as Wolves did with ease 2nd half. We played some good stuff first half but in reality didn’t create that much and were gifted the first goal. Options were limited the other night but long term we’ll be mostly up against teams who park the bus and 2 holders won’t help us break teams down. Also the best way to stop the counter against us is to press high with 2 8’s who have lots of energy. We have 3 in the squad who can do that and hopefully this season Bernie or Foden get to play there alongside KDB more often than not.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

What does it even mean? How is it any different to midfielder?

From what I understand we just need a tough-tackling midfielder who can win the ball and pass it to someone more creative, is that right? So like a younger Fernandinho.

I don't think we have anyone who can do it as well as Fern used to. Need to change how we play or sign someone that can fill the position. Rodri is too slow getting to the ball. Good passer though.

Compared to other teams with tough-tackling midfielders refs see our 'tough-tackles' as fouls whilst judging that other teams 'tough-tackles' are, er, tackles! We get screwed over by every whistling wanker PiGMOL can muster. We got three bookings on Monday, to Hyenas nil! They meet us moreorless halfway when Gabby or Raheem have just had the shit kicked out of 'em and give us a free kick, and on Monday night they didn't even offer this titbit, but there ne'er seems to be any deserved booking for the culprit. It is interesting to see how quickly refs make a decision with some instances. I was gently uplifted when Blind Andre took little time (although it did register 99-999% on the FOCBLatantRegister) to award the pen but some refs, depending on the shirt colour would have awarded the kick before the guy had put the fuckin' tackle in!

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Not really when the ball is played over the top or down the channels as Wolves did with ease 2nd half. We played some good stuff first half but in reality didn’t create that much and were gifted the first goal. Options were limited the other night but long term we’ll be mostly up against teams who park the bus and 2 holders won’t help us break teams down. Also the best way to stop the counter against us is to press high with 2 8’s who have lots of energy. We have 3 in the squad who can do that and hopefully this season Bernie or Foden get to play there alongside KDB more often than not.

I don't know how you negate this tactic unless you want to shave off a slice of attacking options. We always press, go for possession and we are always on the back foot if you have someone like Traore who can do little else but demonstrate how fleet of foot he is.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I meant to start a thread on this myself. I think we will see more of the 4231 this season. Pep has always been reluctant to play it because you get fewer overloads in the attacking areas, but first half last night it looked really solid. It also provides more width for attacking fullbacks like Mendy and Walker. I've a feeling we will be using this system in some of the tougher away games.

 

[Woody13]

Not really when the ball is played over the top or down the channels as Wolves did with ease 2nd half. We played some good stuff first half but in reality didn’t create that much and were gifted the first goal. Options were limited the other night but long term we’ll be mostly up against teams who park the bus and 2 holders won’t help us break teams down. Also the best way to stop the counter against us is to press high with 2 8’s who have lots of energy. We have 3 in the squad who can do that and hopefully this season Bernie or Foden get to play there alongside KDB more often than not.

That high press has to be intense and a complete collective effort, if the opposition play through that press, once again we have a very exposed Rodri sat there wondering which of the three onrushing players he needs to pick up.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

Okay, guess I should bust the bubble. There are 2 interconnected myths getting voiced here.

1. That the double pivot worked.
2. That Dihno was the reason it worked and it wouldn't with Gundogan.

Let me start with the first. The double pivot did not work. Yes we won the match. But this doesn mean the system worked.

Offensively, it was a drag. We created fewer chances. Defensively, we looked the same. Got little pressure (like was often the case last year) but can when the pressure came, we broke. Like we often did last year.

The only difference is Wolves didn't score 3 of their 4 clear chances. Something that would have happened last year. So in terms of reducing opportunities for the opposition it didn't do that. So it really didn't work.

2. The Fallacy that when Gundogan plays with Rodri, they do so as a double pivot. This was almost never the case ( I think it happened in one game I can remember). For the most part when Gundogan and Rodri played together, Gundogan was simply playing the 8. Which he isn't particularly good at.

That said, Gundogan ina real pivot would have looked probably very close this game, barring a few bad forward passes by Dihno. Like Dihno had in the game, Gundog would have had very few tackles, a couple of interceptions (possibly more), and a ton more passes ( more sideways and back).

But the results would have been similar, owning control of the game, but creating less than normal. And if Wolves failed to take 3 of their 4 chances. We'd have won just like we did.

You make a fair point. I thought we were solid apart from a crazy 10 minute spell. Like many, I like Rodri and Gundo as players in certain matches but not alongside each other against teams with pace. We have had problems in the area just in front of the centre halves (because of Ferdy's decline) and on our left flank for some years but mostly Pep has found a way to compensate for this. If we resolved both these issues we would be unbeatable I think.

 

[asahartford1]

Fern tired in the second half. It is not possible for him to press for 90 minutes.
It means the high line defence came under more pressure as the quality wolves midfielders hit some great long balls.

Pep then put kdb, and Foden into a narrower role, in the second half, and this closed down the space for the wolves midfielders.It meant we were less expansive but regained control. A master stroke by pep.

It is a conundrum for pep, defensive high line, without the perfect dms , the front four against Wolves did a great job of shielding, they are probably the best 4 we have at doing that job.
1st game, not the perfect preparation, and we were pretty good.

 

[Craig]

That high press has to be intense and a complete collective effort, if the opposition play through that press, once again we have a very exposed Rodri sat there wondering which of the three onrushing players he needs to pick up.

Agreed and too be honest if anyone breaks against Gundo or Rodri they aren’t stopping them