Dzeko, Tevez and the system

[Shaelumstash]

Shaelumstash

You make some good points in the thread regarding the system, Tevez has done fantastically well upfront playing as the last man and his goalscoring record is fantastic. However we have been a little too reliant on him and due to the formation we have struggled to get players into the box, particularly at home with only Yaya consistently breaking from midfiled.

If as I expect we regularly play a 4-3-1-2 with Silva behind a front two of Tevez and Dzeko. Hopefully we will threaten more from crosses with Dzeko, with the width being provided by the full backs in particular Kolarov.

Tevez has done fantastic alone upfront but I still think he is best when playing in the space, off the the two centre halves and commiting defenders rather than having his back to goal. It speaks volume for him as a player that he is so adept in both positions.

The player I think may miss out more will be Johnson as unless Mancini changes radically and drops one of De Jong, Barry Yaya, it will be difficult to see how he will fit into the system.

Fantastic post Frank, another one who actually understands what I am saying and is moving the theme forward with some great points.

I agree with you that Tevez is great playing high up, and when coming from deep. I think the thing that has worked with him playing up top on his own is that he drops deep and their centre halves don't know whether to follow him or stick to their position.

If their centre halves come out, it makes space in behind, which especially at our place is becomming increasingly difficult to create.

I agree, Silva playing behind Dzeko and Tevez is a good option, but as Tevez naturally drops deep I am concerned they will often occupy the same space and the "hole" will become crowded, just as it did at Villa.

The beauty of the current system is that with Silva starting wide it stretches their back four and creates little openings that Tevez and SIlva are so good at exploiting. By solely relying on the full backs for width I think it's inevitable that the middle will become crowded and ineffective, just like at Villa

 

[Tricky Dickys Right Foot Shot]

You sure told me.

So your saying Dzeko's somewhat apparent average Santa Cruz like perfomance yesterday (Even though I thought he did well) means he's shite in the middle and the left all because of 1 game, well god forbid if thats what we're doing then Silva is a bag of wank and can't create fuck all, Johnson makes no impact what so ever, Barry is a shite player and can't play Defensive Mid and Yaya Toure does fuck all for 90 mins.

No mate he never described him as shite, the thread was about fitting Dzeko into the team and would it require a change in formation. Within the thread he stated consistently "not about his ability" or "Im not making a judgement on the player" or "Im sure he is a fantastic player" It was mainly a thread about the system.

Personally I disagree with the OP about Dzekos performance against Villa, however its a game of opinions so let have a reasoned debate on the main issue of the thread regarding fitting the strikers into a suitable formation than jump onto isolated comments.

I'm not, I just don't know where the OP is getting the fact we can't keep playin 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 from? Yesterday we played 4-2-3-1
GK Hart

RB Boateng
CB K.Toure
CB Kompany
LB Kolarov

DM Barry
DM Dejong

AML Silva
CAM Y.Toure
AMR Tevez

ST Dzeko

Tevez always plays behind the striker he likes to drop deep, Dzeko is an out and out striker who likes to push up. I just don't understand the singling out of Dzeko when (although the team played really well in my eyes) players like Silva, Tevez, AJ and Yaya Toure created fuck all? If Dzeko had of scored a Hat-Trick the OP would be creaming in his pants saying how spot on the tactis were but because we got beat 1-0 it's the formation? Pfft please.

 

[Shaelumstash]

No that's not what i'm saying, and if you'd actually bothered to read what I said you'd know that. I'm not saying Dzeko is a bad player. I'm saying the TYPE of player he is means we are going to have to change the system to accommodate him successfully.

so, why is it that changing the formation actually bothers you? isn't it better to have another top-class striker alongside Tevez who could possibly make the difference when he can't, than rely only on Tevez and his skills and matchday mood?

It certainly won't bother me if they can make it work. My concern is that by completely changing the way we play to accommodate one player may upset the team which has done fantastically well so far.

Of course if we are playing two up top with Tevez and Dzeko and Mancini can figure out a system to make that work then great. But i think that means we can't play Silva as the right of a 3 where he has been playing and won 3 player of the month awards on the spin, and it means Tevez won't be playing as the central striker in a three which is where he has played and scored 14 league goals for us this season.

Don't even get me started on the midfield! after some settling in, I think we now have an absolutely brilliant midfield, one which matches any in the league. If we are going to start playing 2 central strikers, then the system will have been playing in midfield will have to change to accommodate it.

I really hope with all my heart Dzeko will be an incredible player for us, but at the moment I think we are going to have to change so much to fit him in to the team and I'm not sure it will be worth it?

We were doing brilliantly well, and if we were to tweak it to improve I would maybe say find a fine passing midfielder to challenge Barry, or a creative player to play wide left when Balo is not fit, or another dominant ball winning centre half.

All of those additions would have added to and improved the team that we have already built. In my opinion adding Dzeko, while he is a good player, means we have to make big changes elsewhere in the team that don't really need making

 

[wanderer72]

No mate he never described him as shite, the thread was about fitting Dzeko into the team and would it require a change in formation. Within the thread he stated consistently "not about his ability" or "Im not making a judgement on the player" or "Im sure he is a fantastic player" It was mainly a thread about the system.

Personally I disagree with the OP about Dzekos performance against Villa, however its a game of opinions so let have a reasoned debate on the main issue of the thread regarding fitting the strikers into a suitable formation than jump onto isolated comments.

I'm not, I just don't know where the OP is getting the fact we can't keep playin 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 from? Yesterday we played 4-2-3-1
GK Hart

RB Boateng
CB K.Toure
CB Kompany
LB Kolarov

DM Barry
DM Dejong

AML Silva
CAM Y.Toure
AMR Tevez

ST Dzeko

Tevez always plays behind the striker he likes to drop deep, Dzeko is an out and out striker who likes to push up. I just don't understand the singling out of Dzeko when (although the team played really well in my eyes) players like Silva, Tevez, AJ and Yaya Toure created fuck all? If Dzeko had of scored a Hat-Trick the OP would be creaming in his pants saying how spot on the tactis were but because we got beat 1-0 it's the formation? Pfft please.

This might have been the plan, but yesterday it was about all the formations in the book, and none at the same time.

If we are naming names, it wasn't as much about Dzeko, but Tevez running around like a headless chicken and bumping into the defensive wall Villa set up, Silva being nearly invisible altogether, Toure seemingly looking for an excuse to be benched until it was over and Johnson, once he came in and something was finally being created up front, preferred the Tevez-way himself, rather than passing/crossing.

There was no teamwork last night, which is not new at all, but is still very troublesome.

 

[franksinatra]

Shaelumstash

You make some good points in the thread regarding the system, Tevez has done fantastically well upfront playing as the last man and his goalscoring record is fantastic. However we have been a little too reliant on him and due to the formation we have struggled to get players into the box, particularly at home with only Yaya consistently breaking from midfiled.

If as I expect we regularly play a 4-3-1-2 with Silva behind a front two of Tevez and Dzeko. Hopefully we will threaten more from crosses with Dzeko, with the width being provided by the full backs in particular Kolarov.

Tevez has done fantastic alone upfront but I still think he is best when playing in the space, off the the two centre halves and commiting defenders rather than having his back to goal. It speaks volume for him as a player that he is so adept in both positions.

The player I think may miss out more will be Johnson as unless Mancini changes radically and drops one of De Jong, Barry Yaya, it will be difficult to see how he will fit into the system.

Fantastic post Frank, another one who actually understands what I am saying and is moving the theme forward with some great points.

I agree with you that Tevez is great playing high up, and when coming from deep. I think the thing that has worked with him playing up top on his own is that he drops deep and their centre halves don't know whether to follow him or stick to their position.

If their centre halves come out, it makes space in behind, which especially at our place is becomming increasingly difficult to create.

I agree, Silva playing behind Dzeko and Tevez is a good option, but as Tevez naturally drops deep I am concerned they will often occupy the same space and the "hole" will become crowded, just as it did at Villa.

The beauty of the current system is that with Silva starting wide it stretches their back four and creates little openings that Tevez and SIlva are so good at exploiting. By solely relying on the full backs for width I think it's inevitable that the middle will become crowded and ineffective, just like at Villa

That is the conundrum how to get the best out of Tevez and Silva when they both like occupying the same space.

Particularly at home the three midfielders I think is overkill, Yaya and Barry/De Jong would suffice, too many games we have struggled to break teams down and personally I would love to see Johnson, Silva, Dzeko and Tevez start. Maybe for the bigger teams we require a more solid base but where teams tend to "Park the bus" we can become a bit more expansive with as you say Silva stretching teams out wide while intechanging with Tevez and Johnson and Dzeko remaining the focal point of the attack.

Spurs have a similar issue with regards Van der Vaart and Modric but appear to make it work successfully.

 

[blueabdi]

Game like yesterday we can play 4-4-2 both Dzeko and Tevez front and adam johnson and silva as winger...we could have done better i thought.

but no doubt Dzeko is brilliant player and he will do better for us give him time to settle .
vila game they were marking him and almost 5 defenders was der so it was difficult for him to do much ...yes tevez and dzeko can play together but tevez should not be selfish and play pass to his teammates i have noticed sometimes he shoots instead of giving pass to his teammates apart from that tevez is sensational player and can score anytime...what we lacked villa match was urgency and our team shld be more alarm and be quick ..too much unneeded passes and they should learn how to cross and shout as well ..all the best for the next week game.

 

[ibruzi]

That is the conundrum how to get the best out of Tevez and Silva when they both like occupying the same space.

Particularly at home the three midfielders I think is overkill, Yaya and Barry/De Jong would suffice, too many games we have struggled to break teams down and personally I would love to see Johnson, Silva, Dzeko and Tevez start. Maybe for the bigger teams we require a more solid base but where teams tend to "Park the bus" we can become a bit more expansive with as you say Silva stretching teams out wide while intechanging with Tevez and Johnson and Dzeko remaining the focal point of the attack.

Spurs have a similar issue with regards Van der Vaart and Modric but appear to make it work successfully.

The thing is that Van der Vaart and Modric are both looking to pass more than shoot, especially Modric. On the other hand, Tevez is looking to score 95% of the time.
I think they should just play with Silva as playmaker with Dzeko and Tevez playing strikers. Tevez could go out to the wing from time to time with Dzeko remaining more central.

 

[Tricky Dickys Right Foot Shot]

I'm not, I just don't know where the OP is getting the fact we can't keep playin 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 from? Yesterday we played 4-2-3-1
GK Hart

RB Boateng
CB K.Toure
CB Kompany
LB Kolarov

DM Barry
DM Dejong

AML Silva
CAM Y.Toure
AMR Tevez

ST Dzeko

Tevez always plays behind the striker he likes to drop deep, Dzeko is an out and out striker who likes to push up. I just don't understand the singling out of Dzeko when (although the team played really well in my eyes) players like Silva, Tevez, AJ and Yaya Toure created fuck all? If Dzeko had of scored a Hat-Trick the OP would be creaming in his pants saying how spot on the tactis were but because we got beat 1-0 it's the formation? Pfft please.

This might have been the plan, but yesterday it was about all the formations in the book, and none at the same time.

If we are naming names, it wasn't as much about Dzeko, but Tevez running around like a headless chicken and bumping into the defensive wall Villa set up, Silva being nearly invisible altogether, Toure seemingly looking for an excuse to be benched until it was over and Johnson, once he came in and something was finally being created up front, preferred the Tevez-way himself, rather than passing/crossing.

There was no teamwork last night, which is not new at all, but is still very troublesome.

Maybe Villa just defended really well? It's a possibility only because we don't create clear cut tap in chances or score more then 1 goal isn't down to our own play but to the opponents, I would understand if the stats said differently but:

55% Possession
86% Passing success
14 Attempts On Target
10 Attempts Off Target
13 Corners

I'd say looking at these stats the team work was pretty well off, just one of those games where Villa hung on. Like I said if we had won 3 or 4 - 1 there would be no complaints simply becaue we were the better team in all aspects of the field except for scoring, just one of those games where we could of played for 4 days and still not score.

 

[Shaelumstash]

No mate he never described him as shite, the thread was about fitting Dzeko into the team and would it require a change in formation. Within the thread he stated consistently "not about his ability" or "Im not making a judgement on the player" or "Im sure he is a fantastic player" It was mainly a thread about the system.

Personally I disagree with the OP about Dzekos performance against Villa, however its a game of opinions so let have a reasoned debate on the main issue of the thread regarding fitting the strikers into a suitable formation than jump onto isolated comments.

I'm not, I just don't know where the OP is getting the fact we can't keep playin 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 from? Yesterday we played 4-2-3-1
GK Hart

RB Boateng
CB K.Toure
CB Kompany
LB Kolarov

DM Barry
DM Dejong

AML Silva
CAM Y.Toure
AMR Tevez

ST Dzeko

Tevez always plays behind the striker he likes to drop deep, Dzeko is an out and out striker who likes to push up. I just don't understand the singling out of Dzeko when (although the team played really well in my eyes) players like Silva, Tevez, AJ and Yaya Toure created fuck all? If Dzeko had of scored a Hat-Trick the OP would be creaming in his pants saying how spot on the tactis were but because we got beat 1-0 it's the formation? Pfft please.

I'll show you where i'm getting it from. There is very little difference between 433 and 4231, it's basically whether you consider Yaya Toure a midfielder or an attacking player. For me he's a midfielder that gets forward, but however you want to write it down, the system is still the same.
433
.....................DZEKO
TEVEZ...............................SILVA
....BARRY..................YAYA
.................DE JONG

4231
.....................DZEKO
TEVEZ............YAYA..............SILVA
............BARRY..........DE JONG

Whichever way you want to draw it out, it's the same system. The fact remains, whichever drawing you like the best, we have been playing it all season in the league and Tevez has been the central striker. By playing Dzeko there, Tevez has had to move out to the left, or just behind like he was in the 2nd half against Wolves. Hope that makes it clearer!

 

[franksinatra]

No mate he never described him as shite, the thread was about fitting Dzeko into the team and would it require a change in formation. Within the thread he stated consistently "not about his ability" or "Im not making a judgement on the player" or "Im sure he is a fantastic player" It was mainly a thread about the system.

Personally I disagree with the OP about Dzekos performance against Villa, however its a game of opinions so let have a reasoned debate on the main issue of the thread regarding fitting the strikers into a suitable formation than jump onto isolated comments.

I'm not, I just don't know where the OP is getting the fact we can't keep playin 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 from? Yesterday we played 4-2-3-1
GK Hart

RB Boateng
CB K.Toure
CB Kompany
LB Kolarov

DM Barry
DM Dejong

AML Silva
CAM Y.Toure
AMR Tevez

ST Dzeko

Tevez always plays behind the striker he likes to drop deep, Dzeko is an out and out striker who likes to push up. I just don't understand the singling out of Dzeko when (although the team played really well in my eyes) players like Silva, Tevez, AJ and Yaya Toure created fuck all? If Dzeko had of scored a Hat-Trick the OP would be creaming in his pants saying how spot on the tactis were but because we got beat 1-0 it's the formation? Pfft please.

I think Its a fair comment with regards the formation personally, although you're right individual performances dictate how effective the perfdormance will be. The question is will we get the same level of performance from players consistently such as Tevez if he is pushed out right or from Silva if Tevez drops into the hole.

Last season in respect was similar to this, Tevez started on the right of a three with Ade and Bellmay./Robinho and wasnt half as effective until he moved into the middle. Unfortunately that was in my eyes to the detriment of Steven Ireland and so we ended up playing 4-4-2 with Sweep and Bellers occupying the flanks and Ade and Tevez down the centre. Hughes recognised this and as Ade and Tevez provided regular goals at that time it was unfortunate Ireland could not be accomodated, a role similar to the one Silva is playing.

Its just finding the right fir for the players.