Dzeko, Tevez and the system

[Anonymous]

Inter under Mancini disagrees. A midfield of Cambiasso Stankovic and Viera is none of the things you described. Maxwell was nowhere near world class either.

Premier League > Serie A

Seriously though, like I say above - you can't compare the current Premier League (as competitive as it is) with a shitty Italian league shorn of it's top teams...

 

[Dax777]

Wanderer and Mancio know their football. Understanding City's problem strictly in terms of Formation, is quite frankly elementary.

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.
2) We don't need world class players in every position
3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.
4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)
5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.
6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.
7) Gelling will make us a better team longterm.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Not read much of the thread, but good post, although I disagree with you in parts.

Now I'm finally getting close to running out of space on my right hand when counting the good posters who 'see' on this forum.

Lol! There are actually a lot of posters who know what they are talking about. Even though we don't all see things the same exact way. There are many ways to skin a cat. I for one understand that. And I am only trying to put forth one way.

That said, there are also a lot of posters who know very little. But it all helps to spice up the place. So I enjoy 'em all.

 

[Dax777]

To quote a recent post of mine
"We are tentative when we have the opportunity to counterattack. Case in point, at one point dJ had the ball on the left flank. If he had the pace he would have burnt the slowwitted Dunne & Company but then passed back which allows the opponents ..."
I would add that if dJ had the nous he would craft & thread in a pass to Dzeko to score. Its very unlikely given his limits whilst I have seen assists & goals & counterattacking ability from Barry.
I differ with you about Kolo. He is the best experienced CB we've got. Boateng? No for his inexperience. Lets not speculate about his potential. Lescott? More of a hoofing PL 'animal' ie. hoof & run. Albeit he is decent and an experience pro, a great squad player to have.

I actually don't disagree with that. I think he is a better reader of the game than Kompany, and he is just as good tackling. Not as authoritative as Kompany, but he also gives away fewer unnecessary fouls. So yes I agree with you on that. My comments on him were in regards to what halts or impedes our attacking fluidity and effectiveness.

Similarly I still think Tevez is the best player at City, yet he does impede our fluidity.

 

[Mancio]

Inter under Mancini disagrees. A midfield of Cambiasso Stankovic and Viera is none of the things you described. Maxwell was nowhere near world class either.

Premier League > Serie A

Seriously though, like I say above - you can't compare the current Premier League (as competitive as it is) with a shitty Italian league shorn of it's top teams...

bollocks. in serie A you NEVER can find a team that let rags come back from a 2-0 like blackpool did 2 days ago dont marking their strikers.

 

[Dax777]

Very well reasoned. I remember with Arsenal, Kolo used to bring the ball into midfield himself, pushing the ball up the field quickly and starting play from the back (maybe those surging runs are a Toure thing). I still think he is one of the best central defenders around on the ball, but yeah, he does seen to have to resort to the "Kolo Turn" when he holds on to the ball to long and invites pressure all to often these days, leading to the inevitable hoof.

Agree with the above[/quote]

I think that there is more of a problem with out midfielders coming to get the ball from him and finding space to bring it forward.

Yes, it is some of that, but more often than not, it is just Kolo trying too hard to make a great play.

Yaya is playing farther up the pitch (don't get me wrong, this is a good thing), and Barry and Milner aren't quick enough/aren't used to making themselves available.

I don't think we have seen enough of Milner to make this claim. I for one would like to see him get an extended run in that role.

Problem is finding the player to replace Barry and fit our system. I think that type of player is the most difficult to find in the world, and when you have them, they don't come cheap. Can't count on one hand those playing in England now that would fit the bill, and even less that would be available.

There are many players who can satisfy the role in my opinion, and a lot of them are already in our ranks. It is more of a practice thing than skill. They are all not gonna be Silvaesque. Just hard running and easy playing role players. Of my head, Carrick and the other dude at ManU, Herderson at sunderland, Adams from Blackpool, Everton has about 3 guys who do this well (Cahill, Arteta and Feliani), Huddlestone at Spurs, The Kid at Arsenal, The ex-City at Newcastle, Micheal Johnson, and Milner at City. This is more of a mentality and practice role, rather than one of talent. you pass simply and move quickly. Lots of players do this well.

About Johnson, I disagree. Not that he needs to play out wide, I take point 3 in it's entirety, but I believe that he has improved immensely this season regarding the speed and accuracy of his

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I totally agree he has improved immensely. There is a AJ criticism thread in which I posted my opinion of him. U should read it. his ability to beat the defense with cutting runs is second only to Pedro of Barca this year. It is his decision on the ball, and often his ball control style that I still believe needs work. And he is improving even on those. I think he will eventually become a striker, and a tremendous one at that.

 

[Dax777]

I don't think the people who are saying we lack pace in our side are suggesting anything other than we currently don't have any in the team and although it's not necessary - if you're building a balanced squad, it's good to have the option.

Then we are in agreement :)

He's not played as a winger though - ie his instructions probably aren't to hug the touchline and whip crosses in. Right now he's included because of the injury to Balo.

I understand that. Some fans just often hop on AJ not being played as some magic potion. I understand playing him ahead of Jo, coz Jo has no confidence right now. But frankly he is better off coming of the bench when we have a full team, coz he is not the finished article just yet!

5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.

Completely disagree. I can see the "Carlos is greedy" movement has gathered pace in recent weeks. Personally I just don't see it. I'm sure in an 'ideal ideal' world he could occasionally not try and go it alone - but he scores goals - and bags of them, so he's allowed to do it.

Again, like I said earlier, I also believe Carlos is City's best player. But this doesn't change the fact that his style is often detrimental to team efficiency and cohesion. I guess we have to take the good with the bad. But as we begin to accumulate better players, the bad will eventually outweigh the good. Same happened with Robihno. And if Carlos doesn't improve, same will happen to him. I have faith that he can, coz he doesn't play that way for Argentina. It seems he just believes he is so much better than everyone else that even if his attempts don't work, City is still better off.

Perhaps for now, but since the arrival of Silva, Yaya, Balo and now Dzeko, that is becoming less and less true the more comfortable these new additions get!

Here's the thing with playing a diamond - even with the personnel listed, we don't have good enough players

I disagree. Our players are good enoug. They need to gel, yes. But they are good enough technically.

You need world class full backs (which we don't have) and you need three top top drawer midfield players who are all technically excellent, incredibly mobile, and who are equally adept at crossing the ball and making killer passes.

1) Our fullbacks (Kolarov and Boateng) were on the verge of becoming World class when we got them. So there is nothing suggesting they wouldn't achieve that once they are fully integrated and gelled
2) We already have 2 WC CMs in Silva and Yaya. and a swatchbucking tackler in De Jong. one more confident and intelligent CM is all we need. And I honestly feel Barry, Milner or even MJ can become that

My opinion, Yaya can't play where you've put him effectively, especially not with Zaba and/or one of our other current full backs playing.

I agree the chemistry is still off, but Both Boateng and Micah can do the job effectively. If you have the tape, go back and watch Micah vs Arsenal in the 3-0 defeat, you'd see glimpses of what he can become. And Germany at the WC would give you an idea of the kind of FB Boateng can be. Yes they are not fully there now, but they will be if practice continues on schedule. And Yaya can play anywhere in midfield. Actually his worst position might actually be DM, and he excelled at it so well that most even thought he was nothing but a DM when coming from Barca.
However I must caution that he is a little lazy defensively for City. So I wouldn't consider him for the DM position. Playing DM for Barca is uniquely different than doing so anywhere else.

Secondly, the 'other' midfield player. We don't have one - and again, a good 'team' player won't be enough. It would require another world class player to play there.

Don't get me wrong, another WC player would be fab, but not a necessity. I think MJ is probably the best bet for that position if he ever regains his full fitness. He is intelligent on and off the ball, and that is all the position needs.

Tevez and Dzeko IMO can play alongside each other in a front two though...

I hope you are right, but from what I have seen, Tevez has gotten used to being the fulcrum, and he seems to be having a hard time being a team first player. He does it every now and then, but not consistently. And that will eventually be a problem. Or at least so I believe.

 

[Sabster]

Inter under Mancini disagrees. A midfield of Cambiasso Stankovic and Viera is none of the things you described. Maxwell was nowhere near world class either.

Premier League > Serie A

Seriously though, like I say above - you can't compare the current Premier League (as competitive as it is) with a shitty Italian league shorn of it's top teams...

The italian league is very competitive.

Then if I am not allowed to say that how have you come to the judgement that we don't have the players for a 4-1-2-1-2, which is so rarely played in this country that no judgement can be formed about how it fares in the premier league.

The notion that our full backs and midfielders aren't up to the job is absurd. Admittdly a complete creative central midfielder (Gourcouff or Modric IMO) is needed. A team can perform without two top class full backs (see Manu, Barca)

 

[DD]

Premier League > Serie A

Seriously though, like I say above - you can't compare the current Premier League (as competitive as it is) with a shitty Italian league shorn of it's top teams...

bollocks. in serie A you NEVER can find a team that let rags come back from a 2-0 like blackpool did 2 days ago dont marking their strikers.

Probably because the team who is 2-0 down will still insist on playing the game at walking pace hoping that their one tactic will eventually break down the nine man defence.

 

[Jaydoo82]

Buy Misimovic and put him in the middle, i promise you Man City will be nr. 1 before 2012.
He can feed the strikers in a cool and smart way, plus he can hold the ball, i think city needs him and can get him for less 10 mill €

 

[Mancio]

bollocks. in serie A you NEVER can find a team that let rags come back from a 2-0 like blackpool did 2 days ago dont marking their strikers.

Probably because the team who is 2-0 down will still insist on playing the game at walking pace hoping that their one tactic will eventually break down the nine man defence.

Nine Men defense? I really have not seen any "nine men" defense made from Blackpool. if you have view that maybe you have been helped by a few beers ....