Electric cars

[inbetween]

Almost all of the 75% have their own off street parking. A small proportion of that figure have access to shared parking (usually in flats). So generally those figures are for areas that can relatively easily be given charging access.

Your original reply that I saw was also posted to someone who talked about the increase in range. Given the increasing ranges, and the fact that it's a hell of a lot easier to put in charging points, than build new petrol stations, I suspect that even for you, the trigger won't be the ability to charge to 100% in the same time it takes to fill a car.

I don't disagree that charging at home is the ideal, and some won't be able to do that, but I suspect that it'll become more about charging in places where we naturally stop (work, shops, parking bays), than making a special trip just to fill up.

The charging infrastructure already exists everywhere to fix this whether at work, supermarkets, service stations etc. There should be no need for people to fudge home chargers if they can't logistically have one.

Nobody has a petrol pump in their home so having to go and charge up elsewhere isn't an issue. In most areas there are also far more charging points per square mile than petrol pumps/stations.

The real problem is charging anywhere except home is too expensive and that's why people need home chargers. It isn't expensive as in a little more expensive, it's expensive as in 500-800% more expensive. I charge my car at home for 7p per kWh overnight whereas a typical charger will cost 50p per kWh or more. My work has chargers and not a single person uses them for this reason.

All the government needs to do is regulate prices. It's even easier than petrol because there is no variable wholesale cost attached to justify variable prices. The charger provider literally gets the same electricity from the same place that we do so there is no justification. They just charge 500% more for it which is outright profiteering.

 

[Fred_Quimby]

Why do EV owners think everyone has access to a driveway?

Forget charging at home it's not possible.

So now imagine owning an EV in a flat or a terraced house etc. Not much fun is it?

I bet your car spends most of the day parked up when you are at work. You, like most other people, probably go shopping. These are all opportunities to get your car charged. You don’t ‘need’ to charge at home.

 

[Kompany Car]

With electric ranges of over 600 miles next year, and 800+ not much longer. I wonder at what point having an electric car becomes the better choice in most circumstances.

Hydrogen is still dead in the water. Why people keep banging the drum is beyond me.
Until they can mass produce it cheaply, it is a non starter. Solve that, and then maybe is has it's uses.

There is also battery tech available right now that will exceed 1000 miles. Getting it to mass production may take a few years. It is expected the focus will then be on smaller and lighter batteries.
Recharge times won't be as critical if the car can do a 1000 miles!

But the larger the battery the longer it takes to charge.

Theres a finite rate which you can charge a battery as its charge rate reduces as temperature increases. To charge quicker you need higher current which, seen as Joule heating is I^2R the heat increases as a square of the current. The higher temperature also degrades battery charge capacity due to something called Solid Electrolyte Interphase (SEI), which to put it simply is shit which forms on the Anode (positive) and can form on the Cathode (negative) of the battery and prevents the movement if Lithium Ions and therefore the movement of charge.

Yes higher voltage pulse charging improves charge times but once again causes SEI problems.

Bottom line is yes you can have high capacity batteries that you can charge quickly but the battery life will be much shorter. Yes there are technologies based on graphene aluminium, but the energy density is much lower than that of Lithium. Inevitably there will be a chemistry that overcomes the limitations but its not a a couple of years away, certainly not at the scale and reliability required.

 

[Kompany Car]

The charging infrastructure already exists everywhere to fix this whether at work, supermarkets, service stations etc. There should be no need for people to fudge home chargers if they can't logistically have one.

Nobody has a petrol pump in their home so having to go and charge up elsewhere isn't an issue. In most areas there are also far more charging points per square mile than petrol pumps/stations.

The real problem is charging anywhere except home is too expensive and that's why people need home chargers. It isn't expensive as in a little more expensive, it's expensive as in 500-800% more expensive. I charge my car at home for 7p per kWh overnight whereas a typical charger will cost 50p per kWh or more. My work has chargers and not a single person uses them for this reason.

All the government needs to do is regulate prices. It's even easier than petrol because there is no variable wholesale cost attached to justify variable prices. The charger provider literally gets the same electricity from the same place that we do so there is no justification. They just charge 500% more for it which is outright profiteering.

The infrastructure is there on a small scale but on a larger scale the grid and local DNOs cant handle the increase necessary to meet a step change. Years of underinvestment in our electrical infrastructure starts to become apparent. In many areas the 33kV and 66kV substations are running at over 90% of their rated capacity. To upgrade the infrastructure takes many years, National Grid already have a backlog of 8+yrs for new grid connections.

Thats before you get to the technical challenges of balancing the loads across the network, harmonics issues with pulse chargers etc.

 

[crooky]

I bet your car spends most of the day parked up when you are at work. You, like most other people, probably go shopping. These are all opportunities to get your car charged. You don’t ‘need’ to charge at home.

Leaving out that it's still more inconvenient having to charge more than you would go to a petrol stations.

One of the biggest issues is that ...you're going to be paying more than just having a petrol car.

A VW ID3 with a 62kwh battery (58kwh usable) would cost £40.60 on a public charger costing 70p per KWH. That gives you a real world range of around 215 miles.

£40.60 / 215 = 18p per mile.

An equivalent VW Golf I would expect to have around double that range (400 miles) with a 50 fuel litre tank. At £1.35 a litre that's £67.50

£67.50 / 400 = 16.8p per mile.

 

[inbetween]

The infrastructure is there on a small scale but on a larger scale the grid and local DNOs cant handle the increase necessary to meet a step change. Years of underinvestment in our electrical infrastructure starts to become apparent. In many areas the 33kV and 66kV substations are running at over 90% of their rated capacity. To upgrade the infrastructure takes many years, National Grid already have a backlog of 8+yrs for new grid connections.

Thats before you get to the technical challenges of balancing the loads across the network, harmonics issues with pulse chargers etc.

Indeed though I don't think anybody is talking of switching to EV's overnight, it's going to take many years although obviously there will be a rise in other stuff such as heat pumps. My experience of driving an EV is that the infrastructure is there and the technology is there but it's just too expensive which is what makes the infrastructure unfit for purpose.

They've just put in superchargers 5 minutes from me and I've never used them despite the fact they could charge my car up in 20 minutes. Instead I charge at 7kWh at home which takes 6 hours but it's cheap. I feel sorry for people who get sold an EV and can't have a charger at home, it's an extra cost for literally no good reason.

Ultimately it all comes down to profit and money and this is where the talk of climate change is just bollocks. The government wants us to be carbon zero but they also want their piece and so have introduced road taxes upon EV's. It's utterly self-defeating. The electricity providers also always get their piece by overcharging us for energy, this is perhaps why it's doomed to failure.

If petrol ever became much cheaper (which is possible) then EV's would be dead and this is what government does not understand.

 

[Dicko69]

We've had an electric mvp for just over 3 years, it currently costs us around £100 a month to run it, 3 years ago we were putting £80 a week in our petrol car. The only times we haven't charged it at home is when we go on uk holidays twice a year, usually Devon,Dorset and Cornwall.
It is a real pain on those long journeys. You have to drive slow(50-55) or the battery drains. St ives took 10 hours, had to stop twice to charge £40 each time + 45 mins charge time. When we go Devon and Dorset I don't mind so much as we can do it on one stop which we would do anyway and get some food,drink,etc.

 

[Kompany Car]

Indeed though I don't think anybody is talking of switching to EV's overnight, it's going to take many years although obviously there will be a rise in other stuff such as heat pumps. My experience of driving an EV is that the infrastructure is there and the technology is there but it's just too expensive which is what makes the infrastructure unfit for purpose.

They've just put in superchargers 5 minutes from me and I've never used them despite the fact they could charge my car up in 20 minutes. Instead I charge at 7kWh at home which takes 6 hours but it's cheap. I feel sorry for people who get sold an EV and can't have a charger at home, it's an extra cost for literally no good reason.

Ultimately it all comes down to profit and money and this is where the talk of climate change is just bollocks. The government wants us to be carbon zero but they also want their piece and so have introduced road taxes upon EV's. It's utterly self-defeating. The electricity providers also always get their piece by overcharging us for energy, this is perhaps why it's doomed to failure.

If petrol ever became much cheaper (which is possible) then EV's would be dead and this is what government does not understand.

Well theres alway fully synthetic fuel as an alternative, carbon neutral, but its bloody expensive.

Dont get me wrong I like my EV but I wouldn't have got one if there wasn't a tax benefit along with still getting 45p per mile when using it on company business. Do I like it as much as my old car which to the wife now runs ? Nope.

 

[inbetween]

Well theres alway fully synthetic fuel as an alternative, carbon neutral, but its bloody expensive.

Dont get me wrong I like my EV but I wouldn't have got one if there wasn't a tax benefit along with still getting 45p per mile when using it on company business. Do I like it as much as my old car which to the wife now runs ? Nope.

My last car was a diesel, £300pm on lease, £500 per year road tax, £300 per year to service and 2 years ago it was £70 per week to fill up.

The Tesla costs me £2 to charge, no servicing, just £400pm on lease so no depreciation to worry about. Financially it was a no brainer when compared to what I previously had.

That will probably change in 2 years when my lease runs out since we now have EV road tax, higher interest rates and EV depreciation has dropped off a cliff. It's just not as lucrative as it was 2 years ago and forget 3 years ago when charging was effectively free.

I've read about synthetic fuels but really they're no different to regular fuels as they have limited total effect. They still need refining, processing and transporting which isn't carbon neutral by any stretch.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Agree on the convenience point, I don’t think anyone would argue that for those that do long journeys or commutes.

The one thing I would say is anyone filling up either petrol or electric from a service station on the A1 has done some shit planning beforehand!

No queues at the petrol stations on services. But silly prices.