EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

That's a good point. I just worry what they'll do in the short term while they can. If the NHS was completely privatised, I can't see the option of overturning that being easy at all and very unlikely to happen.

I guess I'm just completely unsure which side I can trust if any. I've never taken an interest in politics, but after this last Tory election I know we need them out - I can't be doing with anyone who are so blatantly out for themselves and theirs rather than looking after the whole population. Obviously this referendum is a big deal so have tried putting more effort into trying to find the right decision.

EDIT: After reading about TTIP I'm voting OUT definitely. Fuck that. I've always had the impression Cameron is hiding something and him and Osbourne are puppets of corporations like Virgin wanting more and more and more, sacrificing the health and financial well being of the population. All about removing "barriers" such as reducing food safety rules to expand profit margins - fuck that!

I think Brexit is definitely the far lesser of the two evils. At least their campaign is promoting pumping money back into the NHS (the EU money) which suggests they're more likely to prevent privatisation.

TTIP is far more likely and relevant out than in and out ability to negotiate will be significantly weaker. The argument for Brexit is that Britain can become more like the big global none European economies all who are signing up to TPP deals - even China is moving towards them.

So if you think The reason to vote Brexit is to avoid trade deals with the rest of the world you are really missing the whole Brexit argument.

The only question is if you want TTIP on European or US terms

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Before she'd even died from her injuries remain supporters were using it as political capital against the leave campaign all over social media, the Guardian even had an editorial dragging Farage into a matter of hours later, so don't get all high and mighty here mate, it's highly transparent.

Her murder was used as political capital, that's fairly obvious. It even happened on this sub.

Her murder was a tragedy and no-one is supportive of the lunatic who took her life.

Now, with that said. Can we keep this thread on topic please? This thread is about discussing the pros and cons of leaving or remaining within the EU. There's a seperate thread for that very topic. Let's not have this thread descend into points scoring as we've seen before when that has come up.

You mean the reports that people had heard him saying something about Britain First then the guy went into court and called himself "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", having murdered a MP who did a lot of work with immigrants and ethnic minorities, is called political capital? Political capital, in your world it maybe called, a spot on connection is what it is called in my world. It must be very uncomfortable for the exit camp that papers were showing day after day scare stories about immigration and that morning, just coincidentally, Farage was gurning below a poster that looked like a poster from Nazi Germany however, someone was going to snap. It was him. It is a reality that needs to be dealt with by those responsible for those tactics within the exit camp. Trying to fob it off as a false flag or political capital is pretty poor imho. The fact that Arron Banks was worried enough to see how it affected polls shows that the connection has not gone unnoticed an exit funder.
It is on topic and it is an influence, to a varying degree, on how people will vote.
I have made my point, you can agree or disagree, up to you.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

TTIP is far more likely and relevant out than in and out ability to negotiate will be significantly weaker. The argument for Brexit is that Britain can become more like the big global none European economies all who are signing up to TPP deals - even China is moving towards them.

So if you think The reason to vote Brexit is to avoid trade deals with the rest of the world you are really missing the whole Brexit argument.

The only question is if you want TTIP on European or US terms

No, that's really not a fair representation, at all mate.

The EU are negotiating in secret and any trade deal will be on their terms.

There is absolutely no basis for you to say that we'd be more likely to sign a TTIP type trade deal out of the EU than in.

Fundamentally, we'd be able to choose a party or candidate post Brexit that would have policies congruent with protecting the NHS, and signing trade deals that are not equivalents of the TTIP deal.

In the EU we're completely at the mercy of people that are not accountable to us. It's that straightforward.

TTIP is a guarantee if we remain in the EU. Just a question of when, not if.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

I was the same, changed my mind to IN until I found out about TTIP.

I'd highly advise anyone on the fence (and INers) to read this that don't know about it. Totally made my mind up on OUT because of this:

http://waronwant.org/what-ttip

...and my gut feeling I've had from the behaviour of Cameron and Osbourne they're hiding something and in the pockets of corporations wanting to enforce this. Of course they have all the "experts" paid up scaremongering too.

Absolutely no way i'm voting in!

TTIP is just one of two major trade deals flying about.
You are right about Cameron and Gidiot, of course they will bend to the corporations and will do their masters's bidding.
Voting out will hand TTIP on a plate to them or a worse trade agreement as the US would look to hammer us. At least in Europe there are numerous people working against it and France have come out saying they are against it.
Of the two options, In is the greater chance of avoiding it.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

You mean the reports that people had heard him saying something about Britain First then the guy went into court and called himself "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain", having murdered a MP who did a lot of work with immigrants and ethnic minorities, is called political capital? Political capital, in your world it maybe called, a spot on connection is what it is called in my world. It must be very uncomfortable for the exit camp that papers were showing day after day scare stories about immigration and that morning, just coincidentally, Farage was gurning below a poster that looked like a poster from Nazi Germany however, someone was going to snap. It was him. It is a reality that needs to be dealt with by those responsible for those tactics within the exit camp. Trying to fob it off as a false flag or political capital is pretty poor imho. The fact that Arron Banks was worried enough to see how it affected polls shows that the connection has not gone unnoticed an exit funder.
It is on topic and it is an influence, to a varying degree, on how people will vote.
I have made my point, you can agree or disagree, up to you.

I literally spoke with another poster here who held their hands up and said they were using it as political capital.

Look, mate, I'm not interested in this discussion. This debate is bigger than this kind of point scoring, and frankly, it's beneath contempt. Whoever is doing it.

I want to talk about policies, the economy, tangible things that affect the future of this country, not who said what. Can we agree that this is more pertinent to this thread?

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

TTIP is just one of two major trade deals flying about.
You are right about Cameron and Gidiot, of course they will bend to the corporations and will do their masters's bidding.
Voting out will hand TTIP on a plate to them or a worse trade agreement as the US would look to hammer us. At least in Europe there are numerous people working against it and France have come out saying they are against it.
Of the two options, In is the greater chance of avoiding it.

Don't agree, at all. Pure speculation. In fact it's deliberately misleading.

We know the likelihood of TTIP facing the EU at present, and there is no basis, at all, for you to say it'd be the safer option to remain in the EU with that great probability - than secure the out vote and having it being one of many issues put to our own electorate in a general election.

That, is democracy.

It will be out of our hands if we vote to remain part of the EU.

 

[EalingBlue2]

No, that's really not a fair representation, at all mate.

The EU are negotiating in secret and any trade deal will be on their terms.

There is absolutely no basis for you to say that we'd be more likely to sign a TTIP type trade deal out of the EU than in.

Fundamentally, we'd be able to choose a party or candidate post Brexit that would have policies congruent with protecting the NHS, and signing trade deals that are not equivalents of the TTIP deal.

In the EU we're completely at the mercy of people that are not accountable to us. It's that straightforward.

TTIP is a guarantee if we remain in the EU. Just a question of when, not if.

TTIP will be with us sooner and on less favourable terms without the EU. It is a question of when not if regardless , if you think the UK can go it alone without North America, Europe and the Pacific you are to put it bluntly radical and not in a good way.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

TTIP will be with us sooner and on less favourable terms without the EU. It is a question of when not if regardless , if you think the UK can go it alone without North America, Europe and the Pacific you are to put it bluntly radical and not in a good way.

I don't agree, at all.

And you're entirely missing the point and going for the usual ad hominems.

We're not going to go it alone, of course. We will have to sign new trade deals out of the EU, that is a given. But they needn't be as detrimental to services like the NHS and so beneficial to corporate entities as per the current TTIP deal being thrashed out in Brussels for the EU.

It's a false equation, and once more, scaremongering.

You're advocating staying within the EU on the basis of being more or less guaranteed TTIP, and hoping that people who don't answer to our electorate will do what's best for the NHS. It makes no sense.

The alternative is to have alternative trade deals to the likes of the TTIP being negotiated by people that answer to our electorate, people that'll we'll be placing into office.

That, is the best way to ensure we get a fair deal, and ensure the future of the NHS.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I've tried to vote the Tories out but, unfortunately, I can't do it on my own. They have a hardcore base of support that doesn't care about workers rights because they don't have an invested interest in it. They get into power because we don't have PR.
As for being hijacked by the far right, have you seen or even witnessed how subtle it is? Many people that I know, particularly the over 60's, would class themselves as traditional labour voters. Yet they manage to spout the vitriol that the far right espouse. This is why UKIP got millions of votes at the last GE.

You also have an opposition that has been crap for years. They need to get themselves sorted to provide a viable alternative. You cant blame the Conservatives for that. A credible opposition would walk the next election if you ask me.

 

[cibaman]

What's more, we'll likely spend circa two years negotiating our exit from the EU, and the EU has a specific charter to enable and legislate for the negotiation of an exit member state - precisely so that the economy of the leaving nation, and the EU itself, does not take a hit from the separation. To limit the acrimony and make it as smooth as possible.

Didn't Johnson & Gove say they would immediately introduce measures such as scrapping VAT on fuel, which are against EU rules?

Doesn't the two year negotiation period only work smoothly if we abide by EU rules during that period?