EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%

  • Total voters
    1,050
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EalingBlue2

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Joined
7 Aug 2007
Messages
5,571
Legislation comes from the EU Commission and Commissioners are not elected, they are chosen by the leader (not necessarily government) of each EU member state. I don't call a one-off decision by Cameron democratic given 35k of the UK's 60m people voted for him. I bet the majority of people couldn't name the UK's European Commissioner.
Cameron is making decisions every day as PM of far more gravity and with lives at stake. If you don't accept Cameron as a democratically elected leader making decisions that he is elected to make acceptable then you have to admit you don't believe in UK democracy either.

It is deeply misleading and disingenuous to on one hand talk about Europe as almost a dictatorship and undemocratic whilst ignoring how those people get their roles IE through the decisions of the democratically elected models you are promoting . You either respect British democracy and the PMs right to make decisions or you don't. You can't oretend one decision they make is a paragon of democratic virtue and another the same person makes is illegitimate

There are legitimate out reasons , but essentially lying about things and making inconsistent proclamations isn't one
 

KenTheLandlord

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 Mar 2009
Messages
4,201
Legislation comes from the EU Commission and Commissioners are not elected, they are chosen by the leader (not necessarily government) of each EU member state. I don't call a one-off decision by Cameron democratic given 35k of the UK's 60m people voted for him. I bet the majority of people couldn't name the UK's European Commissioner.

what exactly does that k stand for? i realise 35,000 is waayy too many for him but the 35 what?

Jonathon Hill is the answer to UK guy.
 

roaminblue

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 Apr 2008
Messages
2,991
I'm offering my opinion that for me this isn't about trade. It's about restoring the primacy of the British Parliament, restoring the primacy of the British legal system, restoring the ability to control the number of people coming to this country, restoring the ability to decide which trades or skills this country needs and admitting people based on that rather than where they live, retrieving the 9 billion pounds a year that membership of this organisation costs us, and because I actually believe it's in the best interests of all the people of Europe that the EU wakes up to the fact it's heading in the wrong direction. The arguments about trade are almost a side show to me, but I do believe that there's a lot of scaremongering going on designed to intimidate a largely sceptical public into voting to stay.


Fair comment, but the two are inextricably linked.

You quote GBP 9bn, and I've repeatedly posted that every academic paper I've read puts the externalities as much higher than the GBP 9bn p/a. In essence, you're saying the tangible net outflow is worth reocuping, even if that GBP 9bn is an investment that brings benefits into the UK? Trade cannot be a side-show if you take this issue seriously, nor can FDI, nor can the tax garnered from the youthful, flexible workforce that the EU offers.

Also, if you think immigration will recede by any tangible amount following brexit, you're kidding yourself, you really are.

Finally, our elected officials do have the power to influecne legislation, cast vetos, as you can see from the clobbering Johnson got by the treasury select committee, the out campaign basically functions on half truths and sometimes downright lies, looking at Hannan in particular. Maybe if we stopped voting in arseholes like farage as MEPs, we'd actually have seen some level of democracy, rather than becoming a laughing stock on a european wide stage.

I wish I had the energy to continue these debates. Maybe its because I've had a couple, but after posting two posts in this thread with some actual analysis and have them roundly ignored, its clear that most here don't have any appetite for debate whatsoever (though I think you don't necessarily fall into this campp). Its all just so tedious, the whole thing.

I honestly had some sympathy with the out campaign previously. I could understand some of their concerns, and felt that being a driving force in europe would help to facilitate the change internally. But this thread is so tiresome with people just popping up, spewing propoganda that is questionable at best, and ignoring any type of genuine analysis. I'm sure its both ways to an extent, but it troubles me. Theres a couple of prats in particular who frequent this thread, and I'm sure the nuances fly some distance above their heads.

Any how, happy easter all!
 

EalingBlue2

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 Aug 2007
Messages
5,571
Fair comment, but the two are inextricably linked.

You quote GBP 9bn, and I've repeatedly posted that every academic paper I've read puts the externalities as much higher than the GBP 9bn p/a. In essence, you're saying the tangible net outflow is worth reocuping, even if that GBP 9bn is an investment that brings benefits into the UK? Trade cannot be a side-show if you take this issue seriously, nor can FDI, nor can the tax garnered from the youthful, flexible workforce that the EU offers.

Also, if you think immigration will recede by any tangible amount following brexit, you're kidding yourself, you really are.

Finally, our elected officials do have the power to influecne legislation, cast vetos, as you can see from the clobbering Johnson got by the treasury select committee, the out campaign basically functions on half truths and sometimes downright lies, looking at Hannan in particular. Maybe if we stopped voting in arseholes like farage as MEPs, we'd actually have seen some level of democracy, rather than becoming a laughing stock on a european wide stage.

I wish I had the energy to continue these debates. Maybe its because I've had a couple, but after posting two posts in this thread with some actual analysis and have them roundly ignored, its clear that most here don't have any appetite for debate whatsoever (though I think you don't necessarily fall into this campp). Its all just so tedious, the whole thing.

I honestly had some sympathy with the out campaign previously. I could understand some of their concerns, and felt that being a driving force in europe would help to facilitate the change internally. But this thread is so tiresome with people just popping up, spewing propoganda that is questionable at best, and ignoring any type of genuine analysis. I'm sure its both ways to an extent, but it troubles me. Theres a couple of prats in particular who frequent this thread, and I'm sure the nuances fly some distance above their heads.

Any how, happy easter all!
They are happy in their ignorance and they will pay the price for it, I am only sad for those who actually want to go forwards not backwards but will have to suffer for the folly of others.
 

roaminblue

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 Apr 2008
Messages
2,991
They are happy in their ignorance and they will pay the price for it, I am only sad for those who actually want to go forwards not backwards but will have to suffer for the folly of others.

Its more than "happy", mate. Its veritable pride
 

EalingBlue2

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 Aug 2007
Messages
5,571
Its more than "happy", mate. Its veritable pride
It will give them something else to moan about - reckon they will be calling to cast aside Wales, Scotland , the north etc before too long as they all are holding back londons desire deep down to be a city state
 

Chancy Termites

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 Jan 2013
Messages
2,958
Location
Rawtenstall
Fair comment, but the two are inextricably linked.

You quote GBP 9bn, and I've repeatedly posted that every academic paper I've read puts the externalities as much higher than the GBP 9bn p/a. In essence, you're saying the tangible net outflow is worth reocuping, even if that GBP 9bn is an investment that brings benefits into the UK? Trade cannot be a side-show if you take this issue seriously, nor can FDI, nor can the tax garnered from the youthful, flexible workforce that the EU offers.

Also, if you think immigration will recede by any tangible amount following brexit, you're kidding yourself, you really are.

Finally, our elected officials do have the power to influecne legislation, cast vetos, as you can see from the clobbering Johnson got by the treasury select committee, the out campaign basically functions on half truths and sometimes downright lies, looking at Hannan in particular. Maybe if we stopped voting in arseholes like farage as MEPs, we'd actually have seen some level of democracy, rather than becoming a laughing stock on a european wide stage.

I wish I had the energy to continue these debates. Maybe its because I've had a couple, but after posting two posts in this thread with some actual analysis and have them roundly ignored, its clear that most here don't have any appetite for debate whatsoever (though I think you don't necessarily fall into this campp). Its all just so tedious, the whole thing.

I honestly had some sympathy with the out campaign previously. I could understand some of their concerns, and felt that being a driving force in europe would help to facilitate the change internally. But this thread is so tiresome with people just popping up, spewing propoganda that is questionable at best, and ignoring any type of genuine analysis. I'm sure its both ways to an extent, but it troubles me. Theres a couple of prats in particular who frequent this thread, and I'm sure the nuances fly some distance above their heads.

Any how, happy easter all!

I don't want elected officials who influence legislation, I want elected officials who introduce legislation.

Why do you think parties produce manifestos before local and national elections, but not before European elections? Just think about that for a minute.
 

roaminblue

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 Apr 2008
Messages
2,991
I don't want elected officials who influence legislation, I want elected officials who introduce legislation.

Why do you think parties produce manifestos before local and national elections, but not before European elections? Just think about that for a minute.

We have that also, look at the "teabag" issue that Boris discussed today.
 

roaminblue

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 Apr 2008
Messages
2,991
It will give them something else to moan about - reckon they will be calling to cast aside Wales, Scotland , the north etc before too long as they all are holding back londons desire deep down to be a city state

Doesn't sound all that bad to me....

In all honesty, I should naturally be an "outer". The tories aren't trying to cap my bonuses and are traditionally in favour of deregulation in finance. Maybe I should rethink a few things
 

YPhrunts

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 Feb 2016
Messages
352
It will give them something else to moan about - reckon they will be calling to cast aside Wales, Scotland , the north etc before too long as they all are holding back londons desire deep down to be a city state

The way London has developed let it become a city state. Surround it with razor wire and introduce border controls.
 
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