EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mëtal Bikër said:
I know that if we leave the EU we head into the unknown.

I'm fully aware of this, the difference is I do not fear it. Correct there is no plan at present if Britain leaves the EU because to date no country has left the EU before, so on the same basis that the leave campaign cannot predict what will happen to our economy, neither can the In campaign, yet they are the ones who claim they can whilst most leave campaigners are honest in saying "we don't know what will happen", but rather than listen to all the potential prospects, the discussion has been shouted down as 'indecisive, misleading, unknown!" as they are some sort of negatives.

All life is full of risk, a vote to stay in is a vote for status quo, a vote for leave is the chance, an opportunity to make something better. It could go tits up, it might not, but I don't 'fear' that, i'm concerned about this status quo and where its currently headed, announced by the EU themselves. You're being told the world will end if we leave, leave is stating we have a chance to build a new one if we do.
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We'd definitely struggle at first if we came out the eu, no doubt about that. But I'm more than confident this country would survive in the long term without being in the eu.
 
I’ve posted before how the 4th Reich intend to privatise the NHS thru TTIP.( more likely TiSA) I see that Corbyn has now come out and said that he will VETO TTIP. How exactly is he going to do that, because once it passes in EU law – game over

Or am i missing something?
 
Monkfish said:
Rubbish! He will be gone the same day
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And replaced by someone far more right wing and much less tolerant.

Careful what you wish for. Cameron is going to seem like a saint to anyone on the left, compared to what will come next.
 
tolmie's hairdoo said:
I'm guessing. definitely, but at least I get to choose, so I agree with your argument.

I'm not an economist. Self-employed, two little kids, mortgage. I always vote what is seemingly in my own best interests.

For the first time ever, though, I am thinking about what country I want by kiddies to be growing up in, how their class size has grown from 27 to 32 in the last 12 months.

I'd rather short/medium-term pain, on our own terms, and hope to come out the other side in one piece. I'll take that hit for them right now, clean toilets if I have to.

We're all living in an artificially created sense of well-being, anyhow, when the truth is that interest rates have been kept on zero for eight years to avoid us all living in cardboard boxes.
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I'm similarly thinking about the future for my kids or more likely grandkids, but in my hippy view, I see a much smaller world, with our kids or grandchildren thinking nothing of studying in Germany or taking a job in France etc. Half our banking is foreign, the companies we work for are often foreign, the businesses we interact with (in larger businesses) are all over Europe, sometimes wider still. Even the energy providers are European etc... so even pulling out of Europe, we're so intertwined with them, and still affected by their successes and failures, I feel we should be 'in'.

If BMW does badly, British workers lose jobs. If Telefonica, or T-Mobile do badly, we lose jobs etc. The world's got so much more smaller in my lifetime, isolating ourselves seems a bit of a charade. We're swept and blown by world events wether we like it or not.

Hell, even our club is under foreign ownership! We simply aren't 'apart' from the rest, no matter how much chest thumping 'putting the Great back into Britain' seems to appeal.
 
Manchester_lalala said:
We'd definitely struggle at first if we came out the eu, no doubt about that. But I'm more than confident this country would survive in the long term without being in the eu.
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That's the hope.

For others to dismiss it as 'impossible, miguided and nonsense' just tells me how little they believe in Britain. That's their opinion, fine, i'm not one who shares it, I just wish they'd respect that.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
That's the hope.

For others to dismiss it as 'impossible, miguided and nonsense' just tells me how little they believe in Britain. That's their opinion, fine, i'm not one who shares it, I just wish they'd respect that.
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We will survive. The question is - will we be better for it, or worse? and we may never discover anyway - as we can never truly know what would have happened if we'd taken a different path.

But you could also look to the future and quite plausibly see America as a huge superpower (like it already is). China the same. And they'd be exerting their influence massively. Are we going to be able to stand up to them? I personally don't believe so.

We may end up swallowed up by the Americans, or the Chinese, but if we don't the chances are, we're going to have to join forces with others - even if reluctantly.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
That's the hope.

For others to dismiss it as 'impossible, miguided and nonsense' just tells me how little they believe in Britain. That's their opinion, fine, i'm not one who shares it, I just wish they'd respect that.
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We need a leader running this country, someone who believes in Britain. That wimp and his geek side kick Osborne need to do one for the good of this country.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
For others to dismiss it as 'impossible, miguided and nonsense' just tells me how little they believe in Britain. That's their opinion, fine, i'm not one who shares it, I just wish they'd respect that.
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In that one sentence you have revealed yourself as being somebody who has not respect for those whose opinions differ to yours. Want respect? Give respect
 
TRUE BLUE NO1 said:
thanks for your reply mate...I think we'd be worse off under Boris tho! ;)
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Which do you think has had the most impact on the country over the last 40 years? 1) Membership of the EU: 2) The governments of Margaret Thatcher: 3) The governments of Tony Blair

I would argue that the governments of Thatcher (privatisation, monetarism, restrictions on trade unions, the Falklands War, rate capping & other restrictions on councils, right to buy etc) and Blair (Iraq, Kosovo, Northern Ireland peace agreement, minimum wage, civil partnerships, public sector reforms etc) for good and bad, vastly outweigh the impact of the EU during those periods, many times over.

For me the issue of whether we will secure a free trade agreement if we leave the EU is small beer compared to the impact of the likely changes to the government.
 
cibaman said:
Which do you think has had the most impact on the country over the last 40 years? 1) Membership of the EU: 2) The governments of Margaret Thatcher: 3) The governments of Tony Blair

I would argue that the governments of Thatcher (privatisation, monetarism, restrictions on trade unions, the Falklands War, rate capping & other restrictions on councils, right to buy etc) and Blair (Iraq, Kosovo, Northern Ireland peace agreement, minimum wage, civil partnerships, public sector reforms etc) for good and bad, vastly outweigh the impact of the EU during those periods, many times over.

For me the issue of whether we will secure a free trade agreement if we leave the EU is small beer compared to the impact of the likely changes to the government.
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Or if some 'experts' are to be believed this whole charade is a sideshow for climate change. Now thats much more likely to fuck up your kids and grandkids than anything we vote on in two weeks will, how longs the climate change thread?
 
FanchesterCity said:
But you could also look to the future and quite plausibly see America as a huge superpower (like it already is). China the same. And they'd be exerting their influence massively. Are we going to be able to stand up to them? I personally don't believe so.

We may end up swallowed up by the Americans, or the Chinese, but if we don't the chances are, we're going to have to join forces with others - even if reluctantly.
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Come on Fan...not heard such scaremongering! We are not some piddly Scandinavian country..we are Great Britain...we won't be swallowed up by anyone..like has been mentioned on this thread I think the majority of us Britain Out lot are willing to take short term pain for long term gain...I genuinely believe the EU will fail...therefore it is better to get out now than flog a dead horse

In the long run we will be fine...some people talk like it will be Armageddon if we leave a fucking trade agreement ffs
 
FanchesterCity said:
I'm similarly thinking about the future for my kids or more likely grandkids, but in my hippy view, I see a much smaller world, with our kids or grandchildren thinking nothing of studying in Germany or taking a job in France etc. Half our banking is foreign, the companies we work for are often foreign, the businesses we interact with (in larger businesses) are all over Europe, sometimes wider still. Even the energy providers are European etc... so even pulling out of Europe, we're so intertwined with them, and still affected by their successes and failures, I feel we should be 'in'.

If BMW does badly, British workers lose jobs. If Telefonica, or T-Mobile do badly, we lose jobs etc. The world's got so much more smaller in my lifetime, isolating ourselves seems a bit of a charade. We're swept and blown by world events wether we like it or not.

Hell, even our club is under foreign ownership! We simply aren't 'apart' from the rest, no matter how much chest thumping 'putting the Great back into Britain' seems to appeal.
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Haha - It's clear where we may differ, but I respect that outlook.

I don't see the world becoming a smaller place as a good thing, just as I don't see a high-speed rail link will suddenly create opportunity for anyone but London.

The world is a varied place, with many different traditions and problems, and I think trying to reconcile integrating that and even more people coming into the country, is just impacting far too many areas and services in our every day lives, certainly what I see from a schooling and health level.

I can't remember what life was like now before I had a mobile phone, less than 20 years ago, but I'm pretty sure I was still able to communicate with people, I maybe just had to work a little harder to communicate!!

Half of life's problems, seemingly, is a lack of self-sufficiency, and I like the idea of seeing this country at least attempt to determine how we go forward, without being told we need someone to always hold our hand.

If my children want to study or live in Germany when they are older, no problem, work for it. Get in line, and accept there will be people ahead of you more deserving, and it might not work out how they hoped.
 
foxy said:
The border with the republic would become an absolute ballache to cross!
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Tim of the Oak said:
Border controls inside Ireland is the last thing we need!
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Free travel between the UK and the Republic of Ireland preexists the EU and forms part of several Anglo-Irish treaties. It's not up for discussion in this referendum as far as I'm aware.
 
cibaman said:
Which do you think has had the most impact on the country over the last 40 years? 1) Membership of the EU: 2) The governments of Margaret Thatcher: 3) The governments of Tony Blair

I would argue that the governments of Thatcher (privatisation, monetarism, restrictions on trade unions, the Falklands War, rate capping & other restrictions on councils, right to buy etc) and Blair (Iraq, Kosovo, Northern Ireland peace agreement, minimum wage, civil partnerships, public sector reforms etc) for good and bad, vastly outweigh the impact of the EU during those periods, many times over.

For me the issue of whether we will secure a free trade agreement if we leave the EU is small beer compared to the impact of the likely changes to the government.
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It's probably fair to say that most nations would place their domestic governments at the top of the list for exerting the most positive or negative influence on their nation's fate - and not the EU.
Which in some ways suggests that if a nation has issues, chances are the EU is not the major one, their own government is. In part that's why I'm voting in - because I've preferred a lot of the EU's choices to our own governments and I fear that the notion of 'free to do as we please' also means 'free to make more mistakes'. Of course it might mean 'free to do better' too, but there's enough failings domestically to at least throw a lot of doubt on that (in my opinion).

I've said this repeatedly, but it's an easy example to give...

In opting 'out' we hear that we will take control of our own borders and immigration which sound great. However, we have control over 50% of the immigration (that from outside the EU) already and we've woefully failed to control it. That does not suggest competence on our part. To expect us to be able to manage 100% of immigration when we fail to manage 50% seems incredulous.
Of course that's not to say we couldn't improve - but it will cost us to improve. We will need improved border control (people and technology) - and that will have to be paid for.

That's just one example of how the notion of more control and the reality of more control are two very different things.
 
cibaman said:
For me the issue of whether we will secure a free trade agreement if we leave the EU is small beer compared to the impact of the likely changes to the government.
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This issue of free trade is a complete red herring. For one thing, EU rules mean that a trade deal would have to be concluded with any country leaving the EU. So we aren't going to be cast adrift from the rest of the EU.

Secondly, and more importantly, there's a myth that being part of the EU somehow protects our trade with the rest of the world. Well it doesn't because the EU doesn't have trade deals with most of the major trading nations.

There is no EU deal with:
The USA
China, Taiwan & Japan
Major commonwealth countries India, Australia, Canada & Nigeria
Indonesia
Brazil, Chile & Argentina
The rest of Africa bar S Africa, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria
Saudi Arabia & the UAE

The major deals it does have are with Turkey, Mexico and South Korea.

The actuality is that trading wise we would be little worse off outside the EU and might even end up better off if we can agree free trade deals with some of these major markets.
 
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