EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%

  • Total voters
    1,050
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I don't even know what the hell that means,

care to explain?
Sure.
I'm not going to go through the youth unemployment figures for all 28 states but they are generally higher than youth unemployment in the UK.
Here's a taster. In Greece it's 53.7%, Spain 49.2%, Italy 44%, France 24% and even Finland at 24%. I believe only Germany have better figures than the UK.
So if your youngest is planning on working on the Continent he is going to face stiff competition for the jobs available. Now he/she may be very clever and come out with a desirable degree but don't you think the education systems in other countries produce their own clever degree students too? The fact that a lot of the highly specialised medical staff we have in this country have come from the rest of the world should indicate to you that UK graduates are not going to walk into a foreign job just because they have a UK degree.
If I have misread your post as a remain voter then please accept my apologies. Your son may be for Brexit for all I know which wouldn't stop him from going to work on the continent of course as it didn't stop our graduates from working over their before we joined up. But the unemployment figures are sobering.
 
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Really?

- The models he developed while at Liverpool University are now considered the standard ones among forecasters.
- He wasn't one of the 364 economists who wrote to The Times decrying Thatcher's fiscal policies. Whatever else Thatcher was responsible for, her fiscal policies, including free movement of capital and control of the money supply, were clearly for the better. So he was right on that.
- He opposed Lawson's shadowing of the Deutschmark, which he was right on.
- He opposed entry inti the EMU/Euro, which he was right on.

He is actually one of the least discredited and most far-sighted economists of the modern era.
He was the intellect who supported and publicly extolled the poll tax, who championed Milton Friedman and his greedenomics that led to the 08 crash. saw him speak a few times and was deeply unimpressed he came across much like climate change deniers do, a little bit selective of facts. He still has his fans though and no doubt some of his ideas thirty years ago were necessary.
 
Well - setting aside the obvious suggestion that they may do a better job...........

I was merely stating that in a gathering of 30 people what the intentions are re voting in a referendum where individuals each have a vote - be them taxi drivers, barbers of Prime Ministers - and the reasons given by some for being persuaded towards the Leave position.

So that was the purpose of my post on a thread to discuss the upcoming referendum and I would suggest that it is 'on topic'.

So can you advise just what the fuck was the purpose of your post - or do you just like to post shit for the sake of it?

Sometimes I do, that's true, I guess it's kind of knee jerk. Golf club references always remind me of oh so amusing right wing gobbets of common sense by Tarbuck, or Keys and Gray back in the day they were on mid morning on TalkSport, the "You'll never guess who I bumped in to at the golf club? Well he said..." followed by manly laughter and a kind of nod and a wink that no matter how fucked up the world is, home spun common sense at the golf club bar is where all the sage wisdom is to be found...

Reminds me of the bowling alley scene from Pleasantville...



But you're right, I apologise, I was out of order.
 
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crikey it's a miracle that anyone lived and/or worked abroad before the EU came along lol
 
He was the intellect who supported and publicly extolled the poll tax, who championed Milton Friedman and his greedenomics that led to the 08 crash. saw him speak a few times and was deeply unimpressed he came across much like climate change deniers do, a little bit selective of facts. He still has his fans though and no doubt some of his ideas thirty years ago were necessary.
I'm a fan of Minford because he was a passionate advocate of economic liberalism, which is something I firmly believe in, at a time when it was very much a minority view when I was doing my degree. But no economist has ever been 100% right.

Economic liberalism gave us much of the prosperity and freedom we enjoy today but it brought its own problems as well. The 2008 crash probably wouldn't have happened without it but neither would widespread property ownership, global trade and investment and other things seen as beneficial. 2008 was really a failure of regulation and prudence, not of economic theory.

The EU, in my view, restricts economic liberalism as it denies members of the Eurozone freedom over crucial fiscal policy tools such as exchange rates, interest rates and government debt. I'm not averse to free trade in any way or even a general framework of economic convergence/standardisation but the EU has gone a step or two to far. Sovereign nations have to have freedom of action.
 
That is so deliciously self fulfilling, there could be nothing more idiotic than letting personality rather than facts rule on a decision like this. So In anger at being treated like idiots people choose to behave like idiots to prove they are not idiots. It's magic


I fully agree - but it is the remain side that need to be looking in the mirror and questioning the 'idiocy' of their approach.

If the 'facts' (in this case opinion polls) are demonstrating that there is a 'push-back' against the continuous scare-mongering and patronising - surely the sensible thing to do would be to rethink and adapt the approach?

But no - just more of the same - more personal attacks - more labelling of Leavers as idiots etc. - more condescending comments - more shallow bluster about how people are not clever enough and are not listening to the experts (like good little citizens...)

..........could also be 'deliciously self-fulfilling' - but at least then Remainers can spend the following years bemoaning the outcome and taking the 'intellectually high-ground' - because despite losing they were of course the 'cleverer' side
 
I'm a fan of Minford because he was a passionate advocate of economic liberalism, which is something I firmly believe in, at a time when it was very much a minority view when I was doing my degree. But no economist has ever been 100% right.

Economic liberalism gave us much of the prosperity and freedom we enjoy today but it brought its own problems as well. The 2008 crash probably wouldn't have happened without it but neither would widespread property ownership, global trade and investment and other things seen as beneficial. 2008 was really a failure of regulation and prudence, not of economic theory.

The EU, in my view, restricts economic liberalism as it denies members of the Eurozone freedom over crucial fiscal policy tools such as exchange rates, interest rates and government debt. I'm not averse to free trade in any way or even a general framework of economic convergence/standardisation but the EU has gone a step or two to far. Sovereign nations have to have freedom of action.

Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

"So pervasive has neoliberalism become that we seldom even recognise it as an ideology. We appear to accept the proposition that this utopian, millenarian faith describes a neutral force; a kind of biological law, like Darwin’s theory of evolution. But the philosophy arose as a conscious attempt to reshape human life and shift the locus of power.

Neoliberalism sees competition as the defining characteristic of human relations. It redefines citizens as consumers, whose democratic choices are best exercised by buying and selling, a process that rewards merit and punishes inefficiency. It maintains that “the market” delivers benefits that could never be achieved by planning.

Attempts to limit competition are treated as inimical to liberty. Tax and regulation should be minimised, public services should be privatised. The organisation of labour and collective bargaining by trade unions are portrayed as market distortions that impede the formation of a natural hierarchy of winners and losers. Inequality is recast as virtuous: a reward for utility and a generator of wealth, which trickles down to enrich everyone. Efforts to create a more equal society are both counterproductive and morally corrosive. The market ensures that everyone gets what they deserve

We internalise and reproduce its creeds. The rich persuade themselves that they acquired their wealth through merit, ignoring the advantages – such as education, inheritance and class – that may have helped to secure it. The poor begin to blame themselves for their failures, even when they can do little to change their circumstances.

Never mind structural unemployment: if you don’t have a job it’s because you are unenterprising. Never mind the impossible costs of housing: if your credit card is maxed out, you’re feckless and improvident. Never mind that your children no longer have a school playing field: if they get fat, it’s your fault. In a world governed by competition, those who fall behind become defined and self-defined as losers."
.........................

Oh, by the way....
2008 was really a failure of regulation and prudence, not of economic theory.

That's akin to blaming cops for crime.
 
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Sometimes I do, that's true, I guess it's kind of knee jerk. Golf club references always remind me of oh so amusing right wing gobbets of common sense by Tarbuck, or Keys and Gray back in the day they were on mid morning on TalkSport, the "You'll never guess who I bumped in to at the golf club? Well he said..." followed by manly laughter and a kind of nod and a wink that no matter how fucked up the world is, home spun common sense at the golf club bar is were all the sage wisdom is to be found...

Reminds me of the bowling alley scene from Pleasantville...



But you're right, I apologise, I was out of order.



Thanks - got me thinking..............

of the 30, 5 are retired, 2 are taxi drivers - 8 are in the building trade, 3 work for IT companies, 6 run their own businesses, 3 are in the Home Office and not sure about the others (not barbers though)

Interesting cross section and I would think such a variance that should concern Remain
 
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Thanks - got me thinking..............

of the 30, 5 are retired, 2 are taxi drivers - 8 are in the building trade, 3 work for IT companies, 6 run their own businesses, 3 are in the Home Office and not sure about the others

Interesting cross section and I would think such a variance that should concern Remain

True, a few days back I was with a very successful small business owner I've known for years, a great bloke, intelligent and treats his staff well. He's voting out, as he said "not from the head, but the heart, for the sake of my kids".

The reason, immigration.
 
Sure.
I'm not going to go through the youth unemployment figures for all 28 states but they are generally higher than youth unemployment in the UK.
Here's a taster. In Greece it's 53.7%, Spain 49.2%, Italy 44%, France 24% and even Finland at 24%. I believe only Germany have better figures than the UK.
So if your youngest is planning on working on the Continent he is going to face stiff competition for the jobs available. Now he/she may be very clever and come out with a desirable degree but don't you think the education systems in other countries produce their own clever degree students too? The fact that a lot of the highly specialised medical staff we have in this country have come from the rest of the world should indicate to you that UK graduates are not going to walk into a foreign job just because they have a UK degree.
If I have misread your post as a remain voter then please accept my apologies. Your son may be for Brexit for all I know which wouldn't stop him from going to work on the continent of course as it didn't stop our graduates from working over their before we joined up. But the unemployment figures are sobering.

Why let the facts get in the way of a good Brexit tale. We have the 7th lowest unemoyment rate in the EU. Less than one in five young people in the EU are unemployed but clearly there are problems in some countries.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

Yes we recruit highly specialised medical staff from around the world and we share our medical experts across the globe too. Many of our doctors are propping up the Australian Heakth service, for example.
 
That is so deliciously self fulfilling, there could be nothing more idiotic than letting personality rather than facts rule on a decision like this. So In anger at being treated like idiots people choose to behave like idiots to prove they are not idiots. It's magic

It's more than that EB2. Most people weigh up the pros and cons when making a decision but any cost highlighted by he Remain camp is denigrated as project fear. It's based on the tactics / success the SNP had in increasing their share of the vote in the Scottish referendum. These sort of things are labelled as negative.
- more jobs
- economic strength
- working together with countries in a peaceful Europe

It's a cynical ploy but it could work. The fact that there have been more scare stories from the Brexiters might not count at the end of the day.
 
It's more than that EB2. Most people weigh up the pros and cons when making a decision but any cost highlighted by he Remain camp is denigrated as project fear. It's based on the tactics / success the SNP had in increasing their share of the vote in the Scottish referendum. These sort of things are labelled as negative.
- more jobs
- economic strength
- working together with countries in a peaceful Europe

It's a cynical ploy but it could work. The fact that there have been more scare stories from the Brexiters might not count at the end of the day.


What scare stories? You mean like:

World war 3
The northern Irish peace treaty may be at risk
The birds and bees may leave the uk ( my favourite)
Each family in the uk will be 4080 worse off a year in 2030
It will take 10 years to agree a trade deal with the USA
House prices will fall
Interest rates will rise
The economy will take years to recover if we leave ( if ever)
New one today from Osborne , the northern powerhouse will be at risk.
Nissan will shut its U.K. Plants and relocate them to Europe.

So what are these scare stories from brexit then......
 
It's more than that EB2. Most people weigh up the pros and cons when making a decision but any cost highlighted by he Remain camp is denigrated as project fear. It's based on the tactics / success the SNP had in increasing their share of the vote in the Scottish referendum. These sort of things are labelled as negative.
- more jobs
- economic strength
- working together with countries in a peaceful Europe

It's a cynical ploy but it could work. The fact that there have been more scare stories from the Brexiters might not count at the end of the day.
Do you really believe the Brexit camp have been pushing more scare stories than the Remain? I think the whole Remain campaign has been based on a continueum of controlled drip feeding new stories every day / every other day.

Don't get me wrong I know the Brexit camp has made some daft statements but I don't think it's anywhere as controlled and coordinated as Remain.

Would you like to list say the top 5 scare stories issued by Brexit? Genuine question there.
 
What scare stories? You mean like:

World war 3
The northern Irish peace treaty may be at risk
The birds and bees may leave the uk ( my favourite)
Each family in the uk will be 4080 worse off a year in 2030
It will take 10 years to agree a trade deal with the USA
House prices will fall
Interest rates will rise
The economy will take years to recover if we leave ( if ever)
New one today from Osborne , the northern powerhouse will be at risk.
Nissan will shut its U.K. Plants and relocate them to Europe.

So what are these scare stories from brexit then......
Touchè KHW..... To keep it European of course.... See my last post.

The worst things I can think the Brexit camp have done is to:

Draw comparisons of the EU campaign to Hitler, ill advised IMO.

Use the Gross weekly contribution instead of the nett figure (£173,000,000) this gives a forum for debate and arguement, whereas if they built their case from the £173m they would be on much firm ground.

Neither of the above two are scare stories though.

Immigration is subjective and the figures are disputable, however the problem does exist and so far the Remain camp have come up with no solutions should we reamain in. It's almost accepted as an absolute given that if we want to stay in the single market we have to accept the freedom of movement of EU citizens. If remain could come up with a plan to say how they'd stop that if we remained, they win this referendum hands down!
 
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Do you really believe the Brexit camp have been pushing more scare stories than the Remain? I think the whole Remain campaign has been based on a continueum of controlled drip feeding new stories every day / every other day.

Don't get me wrong I know the Brexit camp has made some daft statements but I don't think it's anywhere as controlled and coordinated as Remain.

Would you like to list say the top 5 scare stories issued by Brexit? Genuine question there.

Agreed, bj it's precisely because of the remainers scare stories that exiters are becoming more resolute in their view and the undecideds are sick of it and becoming exiters.

It's like the remainions noted the guy from jcb had said vote remain and they thought wow we need to top trump that and get someone from a bigger company to write to the staff and tell them they might lose their job unless they vote as directed.....

It's only get bloody worse ( on both sides) in the next couple of weeks...the debates on tv are becoming more chaotic and personal already....
 
What scare stories? You mean like:

World war 3
The northern Irish peace treaty may be at risk
The birds and bees may leave the uk ( my favourite)
Each family in the uk will be 4080 worse off a year in 2030
It will take 10 years to agree a trade deal with the USA
House prices will fall
Interest rates will rise
The economy will take years to recover if we leave ( if ever)
New one today from Osborne , the northern powerhouse will be at risk.
Nissan will shut its U.K. Plants and relocate them to Europe.

So what are these scare stories from brexit then......

Thanks Kevin. straight out of the SNP bag of tricks!
 
Do you really believe the Brexit camp have been pushing more scare stories than the Remain? I think the whole Remain campaign has been based on a continueum of controlled drip feeding new stories every day / every other day.

Don't get me wrong I know the Brexit camp has made some daft statements but I don't think it's anywhere as controlled and coordinated as Remain.

Would you like to list say the top 5 scare stories issued by Brexit? Genuine question there.

Off the top of my head I cant really think of a Top 5, but the main one for me is that if we vote Remain we will simply have to accept ever increasing union, further enlargement and join the Euro. No further say in the matter, no rights of veto, no opportunity for another referendum if these changes are introduced against our will.

And those ads with seemingly the entire populations of Turkey, Albania, Serbia etc heading to the UK seemed fairly scary.
 
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