UK far right trouble July/August 24

[blue for life]

He is very reassuring , lets hope he is as good as he appears

Could be a great moment for him this. Think most will get behind him

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

Just because it may have been a driver in WW2 doesn’t make patriotism beneficial. Or mean that we should embrace the concept or practice today.

Would you say the patriotism of the German or Italian soldiers was beneficial in WW2? Or the patriotism that drove Argentina to attempt to take the Falklands?

Again, patriotism is a love and devotion to an abstract political unit, most often ignoring the complexity and value of the humans residing within that political unit. It is no more necessary to combat or prevent injustice than love and devotion to religious dogma is to prevent or combat unethical behaviour. In fact, it is often the driver of injustice, because people can be convinced to do truly horrific things in the “name of their nation” (which often symbolises an ethnic affinity and/or political ideology). It has been used to justify all manner of horrific undertakings, often against people residing in the political unit that “patriots” deem not actually “belonging” to the political unit or simply not being sufficiently “patriotic”. See the “they’re not real Americans or Brits” nonsense with Jewish people in the US and UK, or with Muslims (or anyone looking Middle Eastern), especially after 9/11 (or countless other examples throughout our history, especially when it came to Indian people we brought to the UK).

Just because patriotism was used as a driver in the past doesn’t mean it should be today, especially after we have learned it is a dangerous concept and practice which has actually caused far more suffering, death, and destruction than it has ever prevented or remedied.

My comments are on what we should do moving forward, knowing what we know now. And anyone that has a passing understanding of history should know patriotism is a destructive concept and practice (which enters the realm of ideology), even for those supposedly on the “good” side.

It is a dogma, like any other.

The problem is whether patriotism necessarily goes along with a hatred of the Other. A desire to exterminate the Other. It doesn't necessarily. It can be simply a positive love of the place where one was born and grew up. But it can be enlisted negatively in that cause, and history gives many examples where it has been. Personally, I'd argue that at that point it's veered over into nationalism. I make a distinction between the two. Patriotism is a feeling, a sentiment, a conviction. Nationalism is, effectively, an ideology. Usually a warmongering one. Nationalism wears the mask of patriotism. Always.
By labelling the Patriot Act by that name in the wake of 11 September, it effectively made it impossible for anyone to look at the precise terms of it and express even mild reservations. We'll still living with the consequences of that piece of legislation. And they are world-wide.
Oh and I love the charmingly named Patriot Missiles — the express purpose of which is to vaporize and incinerate men, women, children and babies in their thousands.

 

[frothy]

no waffle, no jokes, no latin, no ruffling his mop-straight honest and knowledgeable.

the danger is the right wing press allowing him to lead

Did you know his Dad was a Tool Maker? And Kier was his biggest creation, he never mentions he actually owned the Business

 

[mexico1970]

Did you know his Dad was a Tool Maker? And Kier was his biggest creation, he never mentions he actually owned the Business

If that's true someone needs to get in out there maybe on that Twitter (X) platform that people seem to be so fond of :)

 

[bert38]

Did you know his Dad was a Tool Maker? And Kier was his biggest creation, he never mentions he actually owned the Business

news to me

 

[SebastianBlue]

The problem is whether patriotism necessarily goes along with a hatred of the Other. A desire to exterminate the Other. It doesn't necessarily. It can be simply a positive love of the place where one was born and grew up. But it can be enlisted negatively in that cause, and history gives many examples where it has been. Personally, I'd argue that at that point it's veered over into nationalism. I make a distinction between the two. Patriotism is a feeling, a sentiment, a conviction. Nationalism is, effectively, an ideology. Usually a warmongering one.
By labelling the Patriot Act by that name in the wake of 11 September, it effectively made it impossible for anyone to look at the precise terms of it and express even mild reservations. We'll still living with the consequences of that piece of legislation. And they are world-wide.
Oh and I love the charmingly named Patriot Missiles — the express purpose of which is to vaporize and incinerate men, women, children and babies in their thousands.

I actually agree that patriotism and nationalism have been conflated, to the point where there isn’t actually much of a difference in practice, which is one of the dangers of it.

As I have said many times in the thread, there is simply no need for patriotism to be a good citizen of a political unit or a good human. It is an inherently destructive concept and practice with very little actual positive outcomes or characteristics.

A love and devotion to an abstract political unit, instead of a love and consideration to the people residing in and outside that abstract political unit, which is what patriotism represents, is inherently dangerous.

 

[mackenzie]

Just because it may have been a driver in WW2 doesn’t make patriotism beneficial. Or mean that we should embrace the concept or practice today.

Would you say the patriotism of the German or Italian soldiers was beneficial in WW2? Or the patriotism that drove Argentina to attempt to take the Falklands?

Again, patriotism is a love and devotion to an abstract political unit, most often ignoring the complexity and value of the humans residing within that political unit. It is no more necessary to combat or prevent injustice than love and devotion to religious dogma is to prevent or combat unethical behaviour. In fact, it is often the driver of injustice, because people can be convinced to do truly horrific things in the “name of their nation” (which often symbolises an ethnic affinity and/or political ideology). It has been used to justify all manner of horrific undertakings, often against people residing in the political unit that “patriots” deem not actually “belonging” to the political unit or simply not being sufficiently “patriotic”. See the “they’re not real Americans or Brits” nonsense with Jewish people in the US and UK, or with Muslims (or anyone looking Middle Eastern), especially after 9/11 (or countless other examples throughout our history, especially when it came to Indian people we brought to the UK).

Just because patriotism was used as a driver in the past doesn’t mean it should be today, especially after we have learned it is a dangerous concept and practice which has actually caused far more suffering, death, and destruction than it has ever prevented or remedied.

My comments are on what we should do moving forward, knowing what we know now. And anyone that has a passing understanding of history should know patriotism is a destructive concept and practice (which enters the realm of ideology), even for those supposedly on the “good” side.

It is a dogma, like any other.

Genuine question....do you believe that "patriotism" is/could be a binding together of multi cultural communities

If so, is that a "bad" thing?

 

[SebastianBlue]

Genuine question....do you believe that "patriotism" is/could be a binding together of multi cultural communities

If so, is that a "bad" thing?

No, I think that is multiculturalism. :-)

Which also has no need for “patriotism”.

In fact, patriotism usually inhibits multiculturalism, rather than enables it, because patriotism is predicated on a “common” understanding of what the abstract political unit is meant to “represent” so that one can possess a love and devotion to that representation. And, in turn, the characteristics and beliefs people within the political unit are meant to hold are enforced.

 

[mackenzie]

No, I think that is multiculturalism. :-)

Which also has no need for “patriotism”.

What we want and expect is not always the desired result.
But I'll leave it there. ;-)

 

[GortonBlue62]

His first big test, and I'm hoping he will deliver.
Either way I'm sure it will be better than anything the last shower would have done

It will be exactly the same as the last shower.

He's part of the same political class as Sunak et al.

On net zero, mass immigration, individual liberty and giving a fuck about the poorest members of society he stands shoulder to shoulder with his immediate predecessors.