UK far right trouble July/August 24

[SebastianBlue]

I think the right word you're looking for is "nationalism". Patriotism doesn't entail hate of other nations or other people within the state.

No, but it is very often a precursor to it and I have said that I think patriotism and nationalism have been conflated to such a degree in modern times that one does not really exist without the other in practice.

And, at any rate, my overarching point remains that patriotism is not necessary to be a good citizen of the world, and actually more often causes people to be poor citizens and to act horribly to their fellow humans.

I think this is a great essay on the inherently destructive nature of “patriotism”.

The Immorality of Patriotism - Friends Journal

Allegiance to any current government is consent to violence.

www.friendsjournal.org

 

[SebastianBlue]

First, I apologize for a long-winded post away from the main thread, one which might not interest many.
I've long had a liking for George Orwell's writings on patriotism; my own feelings coincide with his and I've mentioned him in previous posts above. See parts of his essays The Lion and the Unicorn, Politics & the English Language and Notes on Nationalism, all written during the Second World War. Simplifying, he described patriotism as "good" and nationalism as "bad", with the former encompassing a love of the English countryside, literature, pubs, cricket and possibly sheepdogs (though I'm making that up) and the latter as xenophobic and aggressive. And I've taken this sentiment as gospel over the years. But just this morning I found something that questioned this comfortable view of patriotic virtue and nationalistic vice. It's an essay (2022) by someone called David Robjant "The patriotic prejudice of George Orwell." Too long and in places a bit too much for my ageing brain to summarize, but it argues that while for some English people the 2nd W.W. was a war against Fascism, thus allowing those of a liberal conscience also to celebrate their patriotism, for others (most others?) it was a war against foreigners, and thus a nationalist thing. It goes on to say that Orwell's celebration of Englishness wouldn't have sat well with the Irish, Scots, or people of India. And it includes a gently satirical refrain from the old Flanders and Swann comedy duo: "The English are moral, the English are good, And clever and modest and misunderstood." (The whole song is worth a listen if you like that sort of thing.) Anyway, if anyone fancies delving deeper into this patriot v. nationalist argument, go look up Robjant's article.

Meanwhile I hope the streets of England are kept clear of the neanderthals in the coming days and the families in Southport get some peace and privacy.

I have not read that but will be this evening.

From you have described it perfectly references my assertion that patriotism and nationalism have largely been so conflated in modern times as to be inseparable in practice. And how patriotism inherently opposers multicuralism.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I’ll get back when finished work more fully Narvik and Norway allowed iron ore imports to Nazi Germany from 1933 I despise people trying to link Britain and its empires efforts in WW2 to these planks bricking coppers and attacking the innocent.

And we traded with Germany up until we were at war with them? Not sure I understand your point is regarding 1933.

No dispute pointing out the complete lack of link between Britain's war efforts with the idiot rioters. There is no similarity at all.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Not in every case. Indians and Pakistanis coming together to cheer on England, the country they love and call home.

Of course, not in every case, hence why I said usually. :-)

Though, I would argue that one fleeting moment of unity to cheer on England may have been more down to sports tribalism than patriotism.

 

[Mr Fraser]

I actually agree that patriotism and nationalism have been conflated, to the point where there isn’t actually much of a difference in practice, which is one of the dangers of it.

As I have said many times in the thread, there is simply no need for patriotism to be a good citizen of a political unit or a good human. It is an inherently destructive concept and practice with very little actual positive outcomes or characteristics.

A love and devotion to an abstract political unit, instead of a love and consideration to the people residing in and outside that abstract political unit, which is what patriotism represents, is inherently dangerous.

"Patriotism" vs. "Nationalism": What's The Difference?

Patriotism and nationalism both involve pride in one's country, but one has a much more positive connotation than the other. Do you know which is which?

www.dictionary.com

 

[HelloCity]

 

[SebastianBlue]

"Patriotism" vs. "Nationalism": What's The Difference?

Patriotism and nationalism both involve pride in one's country, but one has a much more positive connotation than the other. Do you know which is which?

www.dictionary.com

Again, in practice, there is not much difference today.

And I would strongly oppose the notion that patriotism as a concept is more “positive” than nationalism, given the former is required for the latter, anyway.

I will try to step off my soapbox, though, seeing as I have made my point and I am not sure I am going to convince those disagreeing otherwise (or they me, to be fair).

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

An innocent school picture taken just before he was expelled for carrying a knife and calling for an ethnic genocide in the UK. The leftie media are disgusting.

I don’t know if that’s true, but it’s pretty worrying if so and could imply a targeted attack. Just speculation at the moment though.

 

[bluethrunthru]

news to me

Thats coz he didn't - he once referred to his place of work as "my factory" - you know like you'd refer to your seat at the Etihad "my seat". You don't own it.

The other reason why its a lie look at the source of the smear story

Starmer’s Father Admitted He Was the Owner of Toolmaking Factory

Starmer has made a huge amount of his Dad working as a "toolmaker". On Wednesday's highly-watched Sky News Leaders Event he said: "I accept I earn a lot

order-order.com

 

[Lovebitesandeveryfing]

No, I think that is multiculturalism. :-)

Which also has no need for “patriotism”.

In fact, patriotism usually inhibits multiculturalism, rather than enables it, because patriotism is predicated on a “common” understanding of what the abstract political unit is meant to “represent” so that one can possess a love and devotion to that representation. And, in turn, the characteristics and beliefs people within the political unit are meant to hold are enforced.

I think you're being a bit too reductive in terming it systematically an “abstract political unit”, SB. That's not how many people experience their sense of patriotism, I think. Having now spent more than two-thirds of my life outside the country I was born and grew up in (and having spent about 80 to 90% of those two-thirds speaking and writing a language that I'm not using right now in this post), I'm not much of a patriot. But if there are any vestiges of patriotism in me, they're rooted in very concrete, specific things. Things that I take to be special to England (maybe unique). They can be as innocuous and trivial as a liking for Marmite.