Formation discussion (4-3-3 )

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ADegenerate

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The defense is a problem but it might not be what's preventing us from winning the title. It could be the formation change. You could make a pretty convincing argument that we should have won the title in MP's second season to match the title in his first. We finished second his second year with the highest goal differential and then opted to switch formations the next year.

We regressed offensively and stagnated defensively. The attack has improved somewhat this year but the defense hasn't. We're about halfway done and we've gotten eerily similar results from Pep that we got from MP. We can't beat the top 6 teams and we have trouble outscoring the decent ones who park the bus.

I don't think Aguero is best suited for 4-3-3 either. His passing/vision seems poor. He doesn't really score from headers or even crosses and we also aren't properly utilizing the advantageous aspect of playing wingers (pace).
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More of a rant than a discussion but the points have merit I think... Maybe we've just been unlucky as we could easily be in first had we buried some of our chances.

We've committed to the change and that's perfectly fine but something is off about it and surely I'm not the only who sees that? There's something missing and I'm not positive what it is. Maybe it's the over reliance on KDB/Aguerro to win us the game? The lack of a serious goal scoring threat from the midfield? We don't have any killer game changers. You expect Navas or Sane to create something special late in a game? Sterling and nolito even? Something is wonky with our D too...seems like every game our CB's are getting put into 1v1 situations that are are killing us. Over aggression from Gundo/Fern possibly?

I know...I know..transition season and give it time. Trust in pep and all of that.

Thoughts?
 
I received a fair amount of grief but also some good discussion on the topic in the Guardiola and the future thread. I agree that Aguero isn't well suited to the spear of the 4-3-3 but would also submit that we aren't really playing a true 4-3-3 in the sense that our wide forwards are dropping very, very deep. Sometimes this is because we're playing 3ATB and the front players are operating similar to wing backs but even with fullbacks our wide attackers have been coming quite deep to receive the ball IMO, turning it into more of a 4-5-1 in attack which Aguero may be even worse suited for.

Pep is a tremendous manager, he knows far, far more than i do about tactics. I am certain that there's a reason for this and given how frail we've been defensively I'm not sure we can afford to leave more men hanging forward in hopes of springing rapid counter attacks.
 
teddykgb said:
I received a fair amount of grief but also some good discussion on the topic in the Guardiola and the future thread. I agree that Aguero isn't well suited to the spear of the 4-3-3 but would also submit that we aren't really playing a true 4-3-3 in the sense that our wide forwards are dropping very, very deep. Sometimes this is because we're playing 3ATB and the front players are operating similar to wing backs but even with fullbacks our wide attackers have been coming quite deep to receive the ball IMO, turning it into more of a 4-5-1 in attack which Aguero may be even worse suited for.

Pep is a tremendous manager, he knows far, far more than i do about tactics. I am certain that there's a reason for this and given how frail we've been defensively I'm not sure we can afford to leave more men hanging forward in hopes of springing rapid counter attacks.
Click to expand...

Nice post teddy. The premier league is absolutely brutal now. I guess I can't really expect teams to play back at us like Newcastle would. I really, really miss that fixture.
 
The personnel is more of an issue than the formation for me, although there are sometimes problems with the formation. I'd play a formation that gets our most consistent defender on the pitch (Sagna) but it's tough to play a 4 at the back formation and not isolate Aguero who I agree isn't best suited to being up front on his own.

The formation he played at the weekend is the formation I said i'd play at the start of the season because it gets De Bruyne and Silva in their best positions whilst still having holding midfielders. Biggest problem with that at the moment is we don't have the defence to play 3 at the back, Kolarov too slow and not good enough, Otamendi inconsistent ranging from very good to piss poor sometimes in the space of 90 minutes, Stones still learning, Bravo not playing to the standard he did at Barca (edit: just feel i need to state that I rate Bravo very highly).

I watched Juventus on Saturday night and liked the way they lined up. They played 4 central midfielders (4-3-1-2) and used their full backs (Alex Sandro and Lichtsteiner) to bomb on and support out wide, I think that could be the solution to getting our best players in their right positions whilst giving Sergio support:
De Bruyne-------Fernandinho-------Gundogan
---------------------Silva
--Sterling/Jesus/Nacho----Aguero

Biggest problem with that is; we need fast, technically gifted full backs.
 
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What's missing from the senior squad is 8 defenders, another Fernandinho, a younger Silva who scores goals & someone who can hit a bull's arse with a banjo.

But what we've got is easily good enough to compete with Chelsea this season, if Aguero etc solve the bull's arse/banjo bit.

To be at our best, we need another two transfer windows & the kids breaking through imo.

Meanwhile, just fucking score. That will be enough to get us thereabouts in spite of the dicks at the back. They will play better if we put our chances away.
 
The issue is the personnel rather than the formation.

We have wingers who don't offer a goal threat, midfielders who very rarely score and a striker with very little physical presence in the box.

We seem to be caught between two contrasting styles which suit our players strengths. We have the Silva, Kun and Nolito who favour the slow possession based football and KDB, Sane and Sterling who excel playing at a faster direct tempo.

Luckily, we have the likes of Gundogan and Fernandinho who can play in either system but I don't think we will get the best out of this side until Kun and Dave are replaced.
 
MCFC1993 said:
Bravo not playing to the standard he did at Barca.

Biggest problem with that is; we need fast, technically gifted full backs.
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Bravo played behind the likes of Alves, Adriano, Pique and Alba at Barelona. To be honest, he's probably shitting himself playing in behind of our defence. Completely exposed at times.

We need consistency at the back, maybe rotating one at a time if required. Liecester did that last season, and look what happened there.
 
If we had one more good center half and even 2 young full backs of above average ability we'd be top comfortable. The rest of team is perfect. Then any formation would work.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
Bravo played behind the likes of Alves, Adriano, Pique and Alba at Barelona. To be honest, he's probably shitting himself playing in behind of our defence. Completely exposed at times.

We need consistency at the back, maybe rotating one at a time if required. Liecester did that last season, and look what happened there.
Click to expand...

Oh i'm certainly not blaming Bravo, he's a very good goalkeeper, just having seen him for Chile and Barca I know he can do more. Not blaming him for the Chelsea goals, as our defence left them with 3 free shots on goal.
 
Personally I'd like us to return to the 4-1-4-1 that we utilised at the start of the season to devastating effect.

A solid back four, let the fullbacks sit in rather than overlap or even become inverted.

Bravo
Sagna Stones Otamendi Kolarov
Gundogan
Sane KDB Silva Nolito
Sterling.
 
433 is the ideal system if you've got Messi & Neymar or Robben & Ribery. But if only one of the front 3 is a genuine goalscorer it becomes rather limited. Which is probably why we're not really playing it.
 
The 4-1-4-1 was mostly working, I'd like to see that again (When suspensions are over of course).
In the new year:

Bravo
Sagna Kompany Otamendi Kolarov
Fernandinho
Sterling Silva De Bruyne Nolito
Aguero

Bench: Caballero Stones Fernando Gundogan Sané Jesus Iheanacho

Reserves: Gunn, Clichy, Zabaleta, Angelino, Maffeo, Adarabioyo, García, Delph, Touré, Navas
 
ADegenerate said:
The defense is a problem but it might not be what's preventing us from winning the title. It could be the formation change. You could make a pretty convincing argument that we should have won the title in MP's second season to match the title in his first. We finished second his second year with the highest goal differential and then opted to switch formations the next year.

We regressed offensively and stagnated defensively. The attack has improved somewhat this year but the defense hasn't. We're about halfway done and we've gotten eerily similar results from Pep that we got from MP. We can't beat the top 6 teams and we have trouble outscoring the decent ones who park the bus.

I don't think Aguero is best suited for 4-3-3 either. His passing/vision seems poor. He doesn't really score from headers or even crosses and we also aren't properly utilizing the advantageous aspect of playing wingers (pace).
----------

More of a rant than a discussion but the points have merit I think... Maybe we've just been unlucky as we could easily be in first had we buried some of our chances.

We've committed to the change and that's perfectly fine but something is off about it and surely I'm not the only who sees that? There's something missing and I'm not positive what it is. Maybe it's the over reliance on KDB/Aguerro to win us the game? The lack of a serious goal scoring threat from the midfield? We don't have any killer game changers. You expect Navas or Sane to create something special late in a game? Sterling and nolito even? Something is wonky with our D too...seems like every game our CB's are getting put into 1v1 situations that are are killing us. Over aggression from Gundo/Fern possibly?

I know...I know..transition season and give it time. Trust in pep and all of that.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Not sure if you noticed, but we didn't play 433 on Sunday? We were constantly one on one at the back because we were marking man for man.

We started the season playing 433 and won the first 10 games. Aguero was averaging a goal a game at that point.

It's only been in recent weeks where we've been switching formations regularly that results have dropped off.

Since Gundogan became fit we've often changed to 3 at the back to accommodate him. It's made us look very vulnerable to the counter attack and long ball.

I'd personally argue the exact opposite of what you're suggesting, I want us to go back to 433 and play it as much as possible!
 
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