Free kicks for/against ratio

S S

Saddleworth2

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
24,231
Location
Heart of Lothian
In his excellent pre-match analysis of Everton vs City, @MadchesterCity included this stats table showing last seasons statistics for free kicks awarded in EPL and LL. I thought that they were so suprising they deserved a thread of their own. The stats show that of the 40 odd teams in the two leagues, last season we had by far the fewest free kicks awarded per game and relatively high numbers awarded against us. When free kicks awarded against us/for us is converted to a ratio, we are top (bottom) of the league. If you interpret the results at face value, we are Leeds of the 1970's!

Why should this be so:
1) there is an institutional bias from the referee community against us
2) our players dont dive therefore play is waived on and no free kick awarded
3) we are undisciplined (but our fouls committed are not even in the top quartile of the 40 teams)

The stat that really stood out for me is the fouls suffered which is by far the lowest of the 40 teams. Just to make that real:

City 310 free kicks given for us over a season
Arsenal 437
Chelsea 447
MU 487
Barcelona 575

What is that about? What do others think? What should the club be doing to address this?

5phks2.png
 
Saddleworth2 said:
In his excellent pre-match analysis of Everton vs City, @MadchesterCity included this stats table showing last seasons statistics for free kicks awarded in EPL and LL. I thought that they were so suprising they deserved a thread of their own. The stats show that of the 40 odd teams in the two leagues, last season we had by far the fewest free kicks awarded per game and relatively high numbers awarded against us. When free kicks awarded against us/for us is converted to a ratio, we are top (bottom) of the league. If you interpret the results at face value, we are Leeds of the 1970's!

Why should this be so:
1) there is an institutional bias from the referee community against us
2) our players dont dive therefore play is waived on and no free kick awarded
3) we are undisciplined (but our fouls committed are not even in the top quartile of the 40 teams)

The stat that really stood out for me is the fouls suffered which is by far the lowest of the 40 teams. Just to make that real:

City 310 free kicks given for us over a season
Arsenal 437
Chelsea 447
MU 487
Barcelona 575

What is that about? What do others think? What should the club be doing to address this?

5phks2.png
Click to expand...

Because the vast majority of refs in the premiership are biased against city-hence why opposition players are given warnings before being booked unlike our players!
 
That's very interesting but not that surprising TBO. I've been aware that we don't seem to get the 'rub of the green' in games, the first two this season being an example. How many times did we not get a 50/50 against Chelsea and WBA?

Added to that is, for some reason, people like Silva and Sergio dont seem to get fouls, and teams often queue up to foul Silva, and now Sterling.

What also concerns me is that we tend to give free kicks away very easily because our defenders just jump into the challenge and not stand up. All our defenders, including the very experienced MDM, do this on a regular basis. I'd be interested to see how many times we conceded over the past few years following an award of an avoidable free kick near the penalty area.
 
It's difficult to argue with the agenda suggestions when faced with those numbers. I think your second point is valid, we have too many players who try and stay on their feet, hopefully Sterling will start to redress this. Maybe once the likes of Silva and Aguero see Sterling winning free kicks they'll realise that they have to actually fall on the floor for the whistle to be blown.

This shouldn't be the case, but unfortunately it's the reality of the situation and I don't see it changing anytime soon.
 
SuperKevinHorlock said:
Because the vast majority of refs in the premiership are biased against city-hence why opposition players are given warnings before being booked unlike our players!
Click to expand...

Again, the Chelsea game is an example of this. How they didnt get a yellow card before us is just amazing.
 
Mike N said:
That's very interesting but not that surprising TBO. I've been aware that we don't seem to get the 'rub of the green' in games, the first two this season being an example. How many times did we not get a 50/50 against Chelsea and WBA?

Added to that is, for some reason, people like Silva and Sergio dont seem to get fouls, and teams often queue up to foul Silva, and now Sterling.

What also concerns me is that we tend to give free kicks away very easily because our defenders just jump into the challenge and not stand up. All our defenders, including the very experienced MDM, do this on a regular basis. I'd be interested to see how many times we conceded over the past few years following an award of an avoidable free kick near the penalty area.
Click to expand...
You make very good points. Its the free kicks that we dont get that worry me as much. I think this is as much to do with Dave and Sergio always trying to stay on their feet rather than dive which is to be commended. I wouldnt want to see them diving like bloody Hazzard but these stats do show we are being significantly disadvantaged. Maybe we are too nice as a club - im sure that other managers would be hitting the referee association over the head with these stats!
 
Mike N said:
Again, the Chelsea game is an example of this. How they didnt get a yellow card before us is just amazing.
Click to expand...
Yet both Chelsea and Arsenal fans think Silva commits seven or eight fouls in games before getting cautioned. The both think he is a dirty player, and suggest he gets away with it because he is small.
 
Like most things stats can be interpreted a lot of ways. City also received the highest number of pens last season, so if we received the fewest number of free kicks, therefore the highest number of pens per free kicks awarded? Does that show bias?

And what about Arsenal fans? Should they believe in bias? Since the takeover we have been awarded 50 penalties and conceded 25. The biggest difference in for and against in the Premiership. Bias??? Arsenal over the same period have been awarded 34 and conceded 39.

The stats could arguably be explained by the way we play. Teams rarely commit against us in midfield,where the majority of fouls are committed, preferring to defend deep, edge of the 18 yard box, and restrict the space behind.

In these areas, fouls are less frequent as players are less likely to commit as a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous area will be conceded.

As for conceding them surely you watch us play? One of the teams main tactical approaches is the endeavour to win the ball back early and not let the opposition get a foothold within the game. Chelsea this year and last were perfect examples illustrating, when executed correctly, how effective this can be. Naturally the problem with this is by committing yourself, if you do get beaten you need to prevent the opposition breaking. Komps is a master.

I thought the Chelsea game a few calls went against us and I have felt that in other games but not to the extent of any bias. Still on this forum its easier to suggest everyone is a cheat or is corrupt.
 
We give Loads of niggly fouls away in between the half way line and our own box. Mostly by 'Butter wouldn't melt' Fernandinho, closely followed by the full backs, then finally the CB's who are obviously told to defend on the front foot.
It's just a price we pay for the way we set up. There's normally huge gaps in the middle of the park which are exploited when Toure/Silva aren't doing their defensive work. So it's easier to stop play with a foul than leaving us exposed.
Hopefully they will start to decrease with a more solid formation, though Fernandinho Won't change, the little scamp.
 
I've posted on this topic before including in the Agenda thread and welcome this thread now. The position regarding the award of free kicks to us is actually worse than shown in the table which is only a comparison with Spain and for 1 season only.

Here is my post from a couple of months or so ago:

This season (2014/2015) City were awarded fewest free kicks in the Premier League and the final figure was lower than any team in the 5 main European leagues. What’s more it wasn’t even marginal and the average number of free kicks awarded per team was nearly 40% higher.

As for our main rivals:

Rags – 32% more free kicks

Arsenal – 40% more

Chelsea – 45% more

Liverpool – 56% more.



So I looked back to 2013/2014 and guess what – the same story. We were awarded fewest free kicks.



Is this something to do with how we play under Pellegrini? So I looked back to Mancini’s last season 2012/2013 and guess what – almost the same story and we were awarded the 2nd fewest free kicks.

I can’t think of any reason why this should be. Something stinks.
 
Why isn't the club bringing these stats up with the relevant people? When you factor in the fact that possession stats mean that we have the ball more often than the opposition (and so have less opportunity to commit fouls) they are bizarre to the point of being suspicious. Even if the refereeing community are whiter than white we should be getting these stats out there for consideration/explanation, and if this does nothing else it will put pressure on referees to ref our games more even handedly.
 
franksinatra said:
Like most things stats can be interpreted a lot of ways. City also received the highest number of pens last season, so if we received the fewest number of free kicks, therefore the highest number of pens per free kicks awarded? Does that show bias?

And what about Arsenal fans? Should they believe in bias? Since the takeover we have been awarded 50 penalties and conceded 25. The biggest difference in for and against in the Premiership. Bias??? Arsenal over the same period have been awarded 34 and conceded 39.

The stats could arguably be explained by the way we play. Teams rarely commit against us in midfield,where the majority of fouls are committed, preferring to defend deep, edge of the 18 yard box, and restrict the space behind.

In these areas, fouls are less frequent as players are less likely to commit as a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous area will be conceded.

As for conceding them surely you watch us play? One of the teams main tactical approaches is the endeavour to win the ball back early and not let the opposition get a foothold within the game. Chelsea this year and last were perfect examples illustrating, when executed correctly, how effective this can be. Naturally the problem with this is by committing yourself, if you do get beaten you need to prevent the opposition breaking. Komps is a master.

I thought the Chelsea game a few calls went against us and I have felt that in other games but not to the extent of any bias. Still on this forum its easier to suggest everyone is a cheat or is corrupt.
Click to expand...
Interesting points and I agree that some of this can be explained by the way we play. Both Sergio and David were fouled constantly on Sunday and kept going. I think free kicks were awarded in only 50% of cases. Your point about us being awarded more penalties than others is also interesting but you would think that this would also be reflected in fouls awarded outside the box which it isn't. My purpose in posting this was not to suggest every ref is biased against us but to genuinely understand why the stats are as they are.
 
Pablo ZZZ Peroni said:
I've posted on this topic before including in the Agenda thread and welcome this thread now. The position regarding the award of free kicks to us is actually worse than shown in the table which is only a comparison with Spain and for 1 season only.

Here is my post from a couple of months or so ago:

This season (2014/2015) City were awarded fewest free kicks in the Premier League and the final figure was lower than any team in the 5 main European leagues. What’s more it wasn’t even marginal and the average number of free kicks awarded per team was nearly 40% higher.

As for our main rivals:

Rags – 32% more free kicks

Arsenal – 40% more

Chelsea – 45% more

Liverpool – 56% more.



So I looked back to 2013/2014 and guess what – the same story. We were awarded fewest free kicks.



Is this something to do with how we play under Pellegrini? So I looked back to Mancini’s last season 2012/2013 and guess what – almost the same story and we were awarded the 2nd fewest free kicks.

I can’t think of any reason why this should be. Something stinks.
Click to expand...
That's very telling that the stats tell the same story despite the fact we play different systems under the two managers.
 
franksinatra said:
Like most things stats can be interpreted a lot of ways. City also received the highest number of pens last season, so if we received the fewest number of free kicks, therefore the highest number of pens per free kicks awarded? Does that show bias?

And what about Arsenal fans? Should they believe in bias? Since the takeover we have been awarded 50 penalties and conceded 25. The biggest difference in for and against in the Premiership. Bias??? Arsenal over the same period have been awarded 34 and conceded 39.

The stats could arguably be explained by the way we play. Teams rarely commit against us in midfield,where the majority of fouls are committed, preferring to defend deep, edge of the 18 yard box, and restrict the space behind.

In these areas, fouls are less frequent as players are less likely to commit as a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous area will be conceded.

As for conceding them surely you watch us play? One of the teams main tactical approaches is the endeavour to win the ball back early and not let the opposition get a foothold within the game. Chelsea this year and last were perfect examples illustrating, when executed correctly, how effective this can be. Naturally the problem with this is by committing yourself, if you do get beaten you need to prevent the opposition breaking. Komps is a master.

I thought the Chelsea game a few calls went against us and I have felt that in other games but not to the extent of any bias. Still on this forum its easier to suggest everyone is a cheat or is corrupt.
Click to expand...

Frank, we have debated this before.

Ignoring the agenda/bias stuff I'm really interested in opinions as to why we are awarded so few free kicks. The stats are so outlandish it is hard for me to rationalise.

I don't think the penalty stats are relevant. The sample size is ridculously small compared to free kicks conceeded.

As far as the big picture is concerned regards having free kicks awarded against us, I'm broadly of the same opinion as you. If we look at the stats relating to tackcles/attempted tackles in 2014/2105 we at the top of the table which is indicative of the way we play.
 
franksinatra said:
Like most things stats can be interpreted a lot of ways. City also received the highest number of pens last season, so if we received the fewest number of free kicks, therefore the highest number of pens per free kicks awarded? Does that show bias?

And what about Arsenal fans? Should they believe in bias? Since the takeover we have been awarded 50 penalties and conceded 25. The biggest difference in for and against in the Premiership. Bias??? Arsenal over the same period have been awarded 34 and conceded 39.

The stats could arguably be explained by the way we play. Teams rarely commit against us in midfield,where the majority of fouls are committed, preferring to defend deep, edge of the 18 yard box, and restrict the space behind.

In these areas, fouls are less frequent as players are less likely to commit as a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous area will be conceded.

As for conceding them surely you watch us play? One of the teams main tactical approaches is the endeavour to win the ball back early and not let the opposition get a foothold within the game. Chelsea this year and last were perfect examples illustrating, when executed correctly, how effective this can be. Naturally the problem with this is by committing yourself, if you do get beaten you need to prevent the opposition breaking. Komps is a master.

I thought the Chelsea game a few calls went against us and I have felt that in other games but not to the extent of any bias. Still on this forum its easier to suggest everyone is a cheat or is corrupt.
Click to expand...

How do you explain Yaya and Vinny getting booked for their first fouls on Sunday whereas Costa, Ivanovic and Fabregas got several warnings before and after our first yellow?
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Interesting points and I agree that some of this can be explained by the way we play. Both Sergio and David were fouled constantly on Sunday and kept going. I think free kicks were awarded in only 50% of cases. Your point about us being awarded more penalties than others is also interesting but you would think that this would also be reflected in fouls awarded outside the box which it isn't. My purpose in posting this was not to suggest every ref is biased against us but to genuinely understand why the stats are as they are.
Click to expand...


Likewise Saddleworth, I too genuinely want to undersatnd the reason why we are awarded so few free kicks. Statiscally, I'm less bothred about free kicks conceded because there are rational explanations for it.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Interesting points and I agree that some of this can be explained by the way we play. Both Sergio and David were fouled constantly on Sunday and kept going. I think free kicks were awarded in only 50% of cases. Your point about us being awarded more penalties than others is also interesting but you would think that this would also be reflected in fouls awarded outside the box which it isn't. My purpose in posting this was not to suggest every ref is biased against us but to genuinely understand why the stats are as they are.
Click to expand...

Well I think we get a disproportionate number of penalties, for and against, for the exact reasons I have stated. We win the ball back aggressively so rarely come under sustained pressure around our box and also as I have said teams retreat to the edge of the 18 yard box, hence why we receive a good number of pens (highest number again last year). So no I would not expect it to be reflected in other areas of the pitch as significantly those are the key areas where we become engaged with the opposition.

Arsenal for example have a reputation for being bullied and a bit soft so I would expect teams to engage them more in midfield and hence probably receive more free kicks than ourselves in those areas.

Thanks for the response. It is all about opinions of course. I think if their was a bias against us, we played our closest rivals for the league yesterday and nobody would have batted an eyelid if fernandinho had been sent off (except city fans). Now dont get me wrong I did not think it was a sending off but if their was a bias against us the ref had an opportunity to redress the balance of the game.
 
aguero93:20 said:
How do you explain Yaya and Vinny getting booked for their first fouls on Sunday whereas Costa, Ivanovic and Fabregas got several warnings before and after our first yellow?
Click to expand...

I agree with that and said it at the game. You cannot explain every refereeing decision though and that is not unique to City
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top