George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

I don’t doubt your integrity CB and I’m sure you are a law abiding citizen.
I won’t second guess life in Chicago.
But, can you honestly say that someone of colour in the South Side would have the same confidence as you to proceed as you described if they had a firearm in their car.

When I talk about taking the gun out of society, I’m not talking about the white population solely. Would the black community hand in weapons for an equitable society. I’m not sure they would. There has to be the will in all communities but that does not seem to be the way America wants to go.

The attitude seems to be one of mistrust. If they’re armed I’m staying armed. It’s a vicious circle and the consequences are inevitable in my mind.

It is normal to you CB and I’m not even trying to convince you as I see it as a futile suggestion to any American.

I don’t see it changing. I don’t see the will to change and as a result I unfortunately think you’ll be having similar discussions over policing of ethnic minority communities for the rest of my lifetime at least.
1) As a middle aged man who has enjoyed (albeit unconsciously) white privileged for most of my life, I can’t speak for the black experience. However, I honestly believe that a de-escalating Black person would be treated as I would be treated in the same circumstances by the vast majority of law enforcement professionals. Some people are racists and always will be.

2) The Second Amendment is a funny thing, because it is government authority to arm yourself against government-led tyranny. If you read the history of 2A, both what was the original intention and what it has morphed into, 90+% of the people with multiple firearms have them for the reason I stated above...to deter the government from tyranny! Laughable, right, in modern America?! That is one reason I explained why I have three personal firearms. I DO NOT own them because I feel government tyranny requires it!

3) One of the things you hear many times is that if you would just write more laws to remove the guns out of the hands of the bad guys, then we could all give up our guns and be safer. One problem, even in England, is that bad guys find ways to get guns if they want them. The other is that the laws we have are sufficient, but an illegal weapons charge is a joke!

We need a top to bottom review of federal laws on gun ownership and use. There are clearly states rights issues, but 2A is a federal law and we start there.

As I’ve said previously, I’m a bit of a law and order extremist when it comes to personal violence. I believe it is the scourge of any good nation, England included. Throw weapons into the mix and I’m all in on loooong sentences.

Deadly weapons induce the fear of loss of life into any situation, especially unlawful situations. We have a corruption statute (RICO) that TRIPLES sentences for RICO crimes. We could simply apply that to violent crime committing using deadly weapons, even if not loaded! Empty the jails of petty criminals and save the space for the menaces to society. The violent criminals. First degree murder convictions should go before a three judge panel to determine whether the commission of the crime reaches the threshold for the death penalty. If so, 30 day appeal of the decision and then swift justice.

Too few people who commit crimes are afraid of the punishments meted out for them. You regularly see and hear about people with loooong rap sheets, especially drunk drivers who absolutely NEED their cars for work. Well, too bad, you should have thought about that after your third, fourth or fifth DUI!!! Inside for armed robbery, come out and commit another one...LIFE, NO PAROLE, you had your time to think about your crime and you got your second chance...Buh bye! We have no use for you! Go make license plates!
 
I would simply say that America has always had guns. Cops have always had guns. The problem, or change, is that more people in the streets have guns and people are less respectful of the police. That disrespect creates a greater tension and need for heavier handed policing, and the cycle continues. I had dinner with a friend whose cousins is a cop and whose brother is a DEA Agent. He said the things being screamed in their faces in these “peaceful protests” is the kind of thing that, in any other circumstances, would get you a slap and fired in the spot in any workplace.

The level of abuse aimed at police officers simply doing their jobs is unbelievable. Now, do I agree that George Floyd was killed by the police officer in question? Absolutely. Send him down for life, no problem. However, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. George Floyd didn’t deserve to die for it, but he was NOT a victim until he stopped breathing. Until then, he was a criminal who was going to jail...a place to which he obviously didn’t want to return!

Policing in America is hard. Brutal policing should definitely be dealt with severely. However, the level of public agitation of the police is at a level that is also vastly different than in the UK. As some of you know, I’m a gun owner, government trained, and I have a distinctly different respect for law enforcement than I had. I’ve seen videos where police have been murdered by trying to de-escalate, give the benefit of the doubt, and one guy who had just returned to service after a long inquiry into a good shooting, during which he was publicly castigated. He waited, and waited and waited, trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, even after multiple commands to comply and make the situation safer...shot dead, in cold blood, and the guy just drove off.

I’ve also seen multiple videos of the same situation and how quickly a simple change can turn deadly. Guy pulled over, told to stay in his vehicle. Guy gets out of his pick up truck, which has a rifle mounted in the back window (perfectly legal!). Cop tells him to get back in his truck. Guy approaches cop, cop pulls weapon. Guy gets louder, starts walking back to his truck shouting I’ll get my paperwork (Drivers license and car registration). Cop loses track of the guys hands. Shouts commands to show him his hands, while guy shouts that he’s getting his papers.

At this point, cop is looking at guys back, can’t see his hands (overshirt flapping around in the wind) and man is approaching the open drivers side door. THE MAN HAS BEEN COMPLETELY NON-COMPLIANT TO EVERY SINGLE COMMAND AND IS DOING WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO. Meanwhile, cop has gun drawn, but is NOT in control of the interaction.

At this point, man quarter turns into his pick up cab, reaches in to his right, back still facing the officer, grabs something and swivels quickly to face the cop with his right arm extended: Gun or black leather wallet with DL and Reg???

Cop now playing you bet your life...

Never had control of the interaction. No reasonableness standard would allow him to shoot the guy, even though he is completely non-compliant, originally advanced on the Officer, then retreated with loss of eye contact on his hands, then reached into his vehicle for “something,” then pivoted at the officer with arm outstretched...is a bullet heading his way or is the driver presenting his wallet?

If the officer takes the position that he needs to wait and check to see EXACTLY what is in the man’s hand...and it is a gun being fired...he is dead already.

In short, based on the time it takes for the man to grab, turn and extend his arm, IF the man has grabbed a gun and is turning to shoot him, the officer needs to fire his own weapon BEFORE KNOWING WHAT IS IN HIS HAND!!!

We saw both situations play out and even during simulations, even when you KNOW at least one of the events is going to present a weapon, you are fucked!! You literally have to GUESS CORRECTLY, otherwise you are being accused of murder or signing your own death warrant!!!

So..

A) You wait and it is actually a license and registration.
B) You wait and you’re shot dead at close range.
C) You don’t wait and you shoot him before he gets his shot off on you. He dies, you live.
D) You don’t wait and you shoot him as he hands you a black wallet with papers and you’re prosecuted.

Only ONE of those is even remotely preferable outcome, while THREE OF THEM ARE NEGATIVE OUTCOMES....YOU HAVE A ONE IN FOUR (25%) CHANCE of a positive outcome from any such encounter, and in two of them someone gets shot, and even if it isn’t you, you can expect to be prosecuted, lose your life savings trying to save yourself from life in prison, and ruining your family life forever!


COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY...RELAX, RELAX, RELAX...

The officer hones in on YOUR VIBE. Tense, nervous, not following commands, twitchy, moving around, can’t see your hands, window not down, dark in your car, etc, etc, etc...

Stop, lower your window, turn in inside light, hands either out of the window or on top of the steering wheel, palms open, completely non-threatening stance...DO NOT LEAN OVER TO THE GLOVE BOX!

Help the cop and help yourself. Your being pulled because you’ve committed a crime, so don’t think that simply complying should beat the ticket. However, complying, DE-ESCALATING THE EVENT FOR THE OFFICER, and it will greatly help the outcome, and helps the officer be significantly more relaxed. He will appreciate that you have made it easy for him and the threat level drops to 1 out of 10. Lean over to the glove box for your paperwork before he has approached and asked for it and YOU have escalated the event to a 5 out of 10 before a word is said.

There are two sides to how any police interaction goes. Both sides have the ability to de-escalate and both sides SHOULD TRY TO DE-ESCALATE. Unfortunately, that means public compliance with officer commands until he feels safe and in control of the interaction. Do anything to escalate and th Officer starts to feel the threat and things can go bad from there, to include calls for back up, you being classed as a threat, and a strong possibility of removal and handcuffed until the police can be certain there is no further need to neutralize any perceived threat.

Again, one man’s experience and opinion. Like arseholes, we all have one and I’m sure you have your own on mine.

Lastly, during my first full up shooting simulation, I was asked how many shots I had fired when faced with a shooter. I said “3, no 4, because I remember shooting him while he was on the ground as he lifted his head while the gun was still in his hand.” Watched the replay...shot him SEVEN TIMES, 6 before he hit the ground and once on the ground!!! And, the question was asked just a few minutes after the shooting and a quick debrief of why I took the shot when I did, why I didn’t take an earlier shot, or wait, etc... As the adrenaline started to decrease, he casually asked “So, how many times did you shoot and how many times did you hit him?” I was dumbfounded when I watched the replay! I thought I had taken 3 “individual” shots, then 1 more while he was on the ground. Each shot had actually been a double tap, which was an automatic response which we had been trained to do, but it literally felt like one shot.

I tell this story only because until you have faced a gun, and shot to save your own life (even in a simulation), it really is almost impossible to imagine the tension, adrenaline rush, and how you would personally react. For most actual police officers, they go their whole careers and never fire their weapon in anger, so it isn’t a sensation with which they’re familiar, or necessarily an adrenaline shot they recognize and can easily counter. Just sayin’

The fact that he was a criminal is neither here nor there. He could have been a serial killer responsible for 100 murders, once he is subdued and restrained, the cop's job is done. All there is left for him to do is to transport him to the precinct. Let's just for argument sake say that George Floyd didn't die, and he just lost consciousness and woke up a while later, kneeling on a person's neck like that, after the suspect is clearly restrained and isn't resisting arrest (remember we've seen the full surveillance video from the shop, at no point does George Floyd resist any part of what the cops asked him to do) then that is still way over the top policing and needlessly overly aggressive.

On your other point I highlighted - if one absolutely has to fire a gun, what happened to shooting to wound? You've painted a picture of America that is incredibly scary. Do you genuinely believe that every time a cop does a traffic stop there is only a 25% chance the cop or the citizen makes it out of that encounter alive? Yeah sure, in the very specific scenario you mention, the cop's fear is understandable, but even then, there is a reason why a cop is a cop - they're meant to be well trained officials who are experts at deescalating and handling a firearm. The whole reason the profession is, in theory, such a well respected profession is precisely because of the dangers they face daily to protect the rest of us.

In the case of Tamir Rice for example, he was waving a toy gun around, so the cops are understandably on edge, but shooting to kill on sight is such a maddening approach. What is the point of putting a cop through all that training if they can't shoot to injure in the heat of the moment. The daily threat they face, as sympathetic as I am to that danger, does not excuse the complete lack of regard for human life in the instances that has been documented over the years.
 
The fact that he was a criminal is neither here nor there. He could have been a serial killer responsible for 100 murders, once he is subdued and restrained, the cop's job is done. All there is left for him to do is to transport him to the precinct. Let's just for argument sake say that George Floyd didn't die, and he just lost consciousness and woke up a while later, kneeling on a person's neck like that, after the suspect is clearly restrained and isn't resisting arrest (remember we've seen the full surveillance video from the shop, at no point does George Floyd resist any part of what the cops asked him to do) then that is still way over the top policing and needlessly overly aggressive.

On your other point I highlighted - if one absolutely has to fire a gun, what happened to shooting to wound? You've painted a picture of America that is incredibly scary. Do you genuinely believe that every time a cop does a traffic stop there is only a 25% chance the cop or the citizen makes it out of that encounter alive? Yeah sure, in the very specific scenario you mention, the cop's fear is understandable, but even then, there is a reason why a cop is a cop - they're meant to be well trained officials who are experts at deescalating and handling a firearm. The whole reason the profession is, in theory, such a well respected profession is precisely because of the dangers they face daily to protect the rest of us.

In the case of Tamir Rice for example, he was waving a toy gun around, so the cops are understandably on edge, but shooting to kill on sight is such a maddening approach. What is the point of putting a cop through all that training if they can't shoot to injure in the heat of the moment. The daily threat they face, as sympathetic as I am to that danger, does not excuse the complete lack of regard for human life in the instances that has been documented over the years.
I already conceded, and agreed with, your first paragraph.

The rest is, if I can say this gently, ignorant and the remarks of someone who doesn’t understand the use of force, especially the use deadly weapons. I’ll leave it there.
 
I already conceded, and agreed with, your first paragraph.

The rest is, if I can say this gently, ignorant and the remarks of someone who doesn’t understand the use of force, especially the use deadly weapons. I’ll leave it there.

Or "Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6".

NYPD motto.
 
I already conceded, and agreed with, your first paragraph.

The rest is, if I can say this gently, ignorant and the remarks of someone who doesn’t understand the use of force, especially the use deadly weapons. I’ll leave it there.

I would be appreciative if you educate me out of my ignorance then.

What is, in your view, the correct approach a cop should take when they're faced with *possible* danger? Also, are you a cop? I'm only asking to get an understanding of where your perspective comes from.
 
I would be appreciative if you educate me out of my ignorance then.

What is, in your view, the correct approach a cop should take when they're faced with *possible* danger? Also, are you a cop? I'm only asking to get an understanding of where your perspective comes from.
I am not a cop, but I have federal (FBI/TSA) and state (IL State Police) firearms training.

Your question is far too broad to answer, esp as it relates to use of a deadly weapon. You wrote three or four paragraphs, but from the first few sentences, I could tell that you were not versed in the subject. It’s not my job to provide that learning. I’ve written copiously on this subject, because it’s a UK-USA divide, with many Brits not able to understand both the genesis and evolution of the gun in American society. Just as Americans can’t understand the British notion that a cup of tea helps every situation, or that it is almost an obligatory greeting, so Brits don’t understand how entrenched the gun is in American history and life. It is the SECOND amendment, coming right after free speech and before illegal search and seizure and the right to not self incriminate without bias or prejudice. It is a foundation RIGHT...and that word has SIGNIFICANT meaning to Americans. The Bill of Rights, and it’s Amendments are cornerstone, basic freedoms of being an American.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.