George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

[ChicagoBlue]

You must get tired of being wrong

I have lived & trained in Chicago, I know it personally to be a very segregated city just as much as I know how terribly corrupt it's city is from a political and police POV

Have lived & trained” is different than “understand.”

As I said...

SEGREGATION
the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart.
"the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties"

We’re you better versed in America and American politics, you would understand that the word “segregation” not only has a meaning you don’t appear to understand, but has a specific historical context when it comes to America and large American cities, institutions and life.

The fact that you DON’T KNOW this informs the rest of your comment “just as much as I know how....”

Again, you might want to stop trying to teach Grandma how to suck eggs!

I DO live in Chicago.
I DO have law enforcement knowledge & experience.

Does “wrong” have a different meaning in Catalan?

From your own article:
"The scars of segregation, redlining, housing policies and discrimination are still very visible today," said Lauren Nolan, economic development planner at the Voorhees Center.

“The scars” are a result of PAST actions and policies. Any such “segregation” today is a result of choice and, in many instances, opportunity. However, I’m a white, middle-aged, relatively successful man with a significant income and even I can’t afford to live in some areas of the city. I would imagine there are parts of Barcelona where this is true, too, just as there are less desirable places one might prefer not to live.

I get that America is an easy target, especially in the current climate, but outsiders throwing around third rail terms doesn’t illuminate the conversation that was being had, especially when it broad brushes and issue that is distinctly specific to specific acts at specific times with specific people involved. Rather, it serves to perpetuate myths and gloss over the specifics that too often get missed once it’s is raised and people start running to their corners.

 

[Dicko69]

Have lived & trained” is different than “understand.”

As I said...

SEGREGATION
the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart.
"the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties"

We’re you better versed in America and American politics, you would understand that the word “segregation” not only has a meaning you don’t appear to understand, but has a specific historical context when it comes to America and large American cities, institutions and life.

The fact that you DON’T KNOW this informs the rest of your comment “just as much as I know how....”

Again, you might want to stop trying to teach Grandma how to suck eggs!

I DO live in Chicago.
I DO have law enforcement knowledge & experience.

Does “wrong” have a different meaning in Catalan?

He's Swiss, and if you think he's embarrassing himself in this thread, you should check out the garcia thread

 

[ChicagoBlue]

He's Swiss, and if you think he's embarrassing himself in this thread, you should check out the garcia thread

I’ve seen his posts elsewhere, and while I have no personal axe to grind against anyone expressing heartfelt feelings, I do have a problem with broad brush denigrations related to very specific problems.

It does nothing to further the discussion and obfuscates any drilling down to cause and effect.

Blake was shot because he was armed with a deadly weapon, refused to comply numerous times, the escalation of force meant to enforce compliance (manual/physical followed by non-lethal taser) had proven ineffective, had a warrant for physical abuse, and was entering the drivers side of a vehicle with children inside.

As if that wasn’t enough, he then attempted to use the deadly weapon against the officers (both officers and non-involved eye witnesses have testified in writing to this) when one of them tried to hold the door open and the other grabbed his t-shirt to pull him out.

NONE of this is in dispute. I have spoken to these actions being entirely defensible from the outset. Sadly, people from other cultures and ways of life simply cannot understand that life in America, where gun ownership is prevalent and a daily threat to law enforcement, is NOT LIKE life in Switzerland or the UK, or anywhere else for that matter.

While the terminology is slightly sterile when discussing human life, it was a “good shoot” that resulted in death. That means it was legal IN KENOSHA, WISCONSIN AND THE USA to do what those officers did.

THAT was what we were supposed to be talking about, not the geographical racial make up of Chicago or the supposed corruption of the Chicago police!

 

[Bigga]

Lets be clear here , the didnt give him any treatment until an officer appeared and told one of the others to get on his chest , no doubt thinking how this would look not because they could save him

Nice jokes by a few tossers but the guy could have been saved if they had bothered after they shot the poor **** , i have seen a few like this when they do not even attempt to save them

Yeah, I've seen a few myself.

I find it most bemusing to watch a cop amble up to a dead man like he's easy on a Sunday morning!

 

[Bigga]

For those blinded by the defence of police action, for "legal" read "choice" as that is what happens when an officer has a gun in his hand against a person with no firearm.

 

[FCBarca]

@ChicagoBlue

Problem for you appears to be more about accepting the reality of how segregated Chicago remains. I made this statement without any knowledge of articles or studies on the topic yet a simple internet search turns up countless results on segregation inextricably linked to present day Chicago

I also have personal experience with local police in Chicago and the things I've seen/known over the years beggars belief. But even outside of the subjective observations I have personally witnessed on how divided the City is or how corrupt the police department continues to be, there are just as many internet search results on corruption & racism in the police force of Chicago. Even the Federal Government's DOJ has cited how systemically corrupt & racist the men/women in blue are in Chicago

And no, the segregation that exists today is not simply by choice when housing projects like Cabrini Green were torn down, blacks moved further away from prosperous downtown for luxury homes. It's a great but misleading stat about how there is a multiracial makeup overall to a city like Chicago but go downtown and you'd never know that blacks actually lived in Chicago - head further south past UoC and suddenly 18-20 neighborhoods are >90% black and dealing with abject poverty & ignored by the city

As a city, overall, I love Chicago but it is absolutely segregated. You're free to ignore race & corruption realities in cities like Chicago but the body of evidence is quite clear, past & present

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I don’t ignore reality, but your spouting right wing talking points about Chicago.

Chicago was one of the most open cities in America after the Civil War and has a huge black and brown populations that ON THE WHOLE still lives in the areas of the city where they settled. Many of those locations are historically manual labor areas, like the old stock yards, as a simple example.

However, to maintain focus on historically black and brown areas ignores the decades of work and gentrification of large swathes of Chicago, to include black and brown areas.

As you may know, Chicago is, and always has been, a melting pot of neighborhoods...many of which I could not even name, let alone their boundaries...which have become increasingly diverse and more vibrant for that.

Racial integration is perhaps not where social scientists might like, but the reality on the ground is that, with extremely few very localized areas, Chicago is NOT “segregated” in the manner in which most people understand that term. THAT is what I have tried to explain, and which your broad brush fails to recognize.

As for Police corruption, I have no argument that it exists, but within the boundaries of this discussion, Chicago has completely avoided the “white cop kills black guy” spotlight. Again, the broad brush sloshes its mess outside the boundaries of the picture we are discussing.

The discussion of what Chicago is, or is not, is an excellent one, just not the one everyone else is having in this thread.

 

[Ban-jani]

For those blinded by the defence of police action, for "legal" read "choice" as that is what happens when an officer has a gun in his hand against a person with no firearm.

In the case of Blake, why didn’t the prosecution decide to move?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

For those blinded by the defence of police action, for "legal" read "choice" as that is what happens when an officer has a gun in his hand against a person with no firearm.

No firearm does not mean, nor should it imply, no threat to life.

Any police officer faced with a physical threat is ALSO faced with the knowledge that if their weapon is taken from them, it will most likely be used against them.

Ive discussed this before. This is not bringing a gun to a knife fight or even bringing a gun to a fist fight. It is upholding the law and ensuring the life of the officer who is attempting to do do is NEVER brought into question. The second it is, he is justified in the use of his weapon.

This is UNDERSTOOD by most people, and it is only the most brazen threat that, in the face of a drawn firearm in the hands of a law enforcement officer, does not comply with instructions to de-escalate the situation, that ANY THREAT to an officer may be met by deadly force.

You don’t need ANY weapon to create that situation, which is why this notion (perpetuated here and in most media outlets) that “unarmed man” represents no clear and present danger to the situation is ridiculous.

When you are holding out your arms with a firearm, you can’t let an assailant simply run at you and tackle you, simply because he is “unarmed.”

America is America, and the norms and morays are not what they are in England, or elsewhere. Sooner or later, the world is going to have to come to terms with that.

 

[FCBarca]

@ChicagoBlue As I say, you seem to not get tired of being wrong - now you suggest I am spouting right wing talking points? Do you know what right wing is? Love to hear how you think that is the case, if anything my points are more left leaning

America is indeed an easy target but they put the that target there themselves, no point pretending it doesn't exist much less racism & police violence

Not sure either how you fail to grasp the link between BLM and what I pointed out about someone from Chicago failing to recognize said violence/racism when you feigned ignorance at my claim about the city & it's history

Blacks in Chicago are 14 times more likely to be subjected to Chicago police excessive force than whites

Spoiler

Same with deaths from CPD, disproportionate

Spoiler

In a 2020 audit of American cities, the municipal monitor Truth in Accounting gave Chicago an F for fiscal health. It called the town a “sinkhole” that’s $36 billion in the red and owes more per citizen — roughly $40,000 apiece — than any metropolis save New York. It borrows huge sums to meet its obligations, routinely raises taxes on property owners, and claws back millions from teachers’ pensions to float its annual budget. What it doesn’t do is face down the ruinous costs of police misconduct against its people. Chicagoans pay more to the victims of cop violence than the residents of any U.S. city per capita. In 2018, the last year for which there are records, the city spent about $100 million on claims, and tens of millions more in legal fees to the lawyers who brought the cases.

Those numbers track squarely with previous years. Between 2010 and 2017, the city issued more than $700 million in “police brutality bonds,” as civic watchdogs call them. Per a 2018 study by the Action Center on Race and the Economy (ACRE), Chicago leaned on entities like Goldman Sachs to raise the $700 million it needed. But because the city’s credit rating is junk-adjacent, it had to agree to loan-shark terms with its corporate lenders. Accordingly, the city will shell out $800 million simply to service the debt on that loan. And who gets the tab for the $1.5 billion? The taxpayers — specifically, the poor ones.