Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

[Pooper]

But nobody is going to convince me that a large contingent of fans didn't travel to that match without a ticket, or outrageously drunk, or for the express purpose of causing trouble - and that created the conditions for this disaster to happen. I see that happening today all the time. Regardless of what reports claim, if people with no business being there weren't there, this would not have happened.

Well thank goodness we have clear-sighted people like you who can see through cynical government cover-ups and whitewashes such as the Taylor Report and the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which have duped the vast majority of people, including the victims' families.

By the way - just in case your obvious lack of brain cells prevents you from seeing it, I was being sarcastic. You're an utter arsehole of the highest order for coming out with something like that, against all the documented evidence to the contrary. Sorry if that's harsh but I really don't know what else to say.

Threads on Hillsborough always end up with it raining sledgehammers launched from those within who seem unable to remain objective and pragmatic during the discussion.

When all said and done, Hillsborough was an accident. Neither side set out that day to kill people and i believe any person involved in those events would have done everything possible to ensure people didn't die.

As with all accidents, there is never one single cause, but a web of primary and secondary events.

So whilst most argue (pointlessly) that it was the fans fault or the police fault, or the FA or the club or whatever, they forget to look at the reasons.

I've no insight to the reasons of the disaster personally, although there is some excellent (sledgehammer free) posts in this thread discussing them.

I do think it odd that history is oft ignored /dismissed though. The interactions of both the police and the fans on the day (the primary cause of the disaster IMO) was shaped (as it was/is at all other football events of that time and ilk) by the decades of similar behaviour by both sides. Let's not forget this was 20 odd years ago. A different time. We no longer hear of mass, organised football hooliganism or pitched battles between the establishment and the public which was (afaicr) a common occurrence of the day.

Its evident to me that in the battle between both extremes of the arguments regarding Hillsborough, the truth gets lost a little in the middle and the core issues which demand correction so that it never happens again get marginalised.

Regarding the aftermath and the various witch hunts on all sides, I just find it disrespectful to those that died.

 

[IH8MUFC]

I've never been to Hillsborough, so my question is, was it easy to see that there was a large amount of people in front of them? Couldn't the fans at the back just back off? Or back then was the stadium designs so poor that it was hard to tell exactly how many people were in front of them?

I've been in the Leppings lane end......I got crushed too. People just push forward with no consideration for who is at the front.

Things were so different back then too ....jibbing in etc

So many more people than in seats and no order at all. If everyone came in late then it could be chaos.

It can still be bad now.

Look at how it was at Anfield a few season ago in the semi final of the Carling Cup late arrivals (due to accident) and we got crushed outside.

Fair enough. Just seems logical that there's loads of people in front so the people by the exits would back off. Of course the people in the middle and front have no where to go.

 

[Indestructable]

I think it would be useful if the term Justice could be defined in this case as I am not clear what justice actually looks like. A few times I thought that this point had been reached only for the campaign to continue. A few of the "guilty" parties have since passed away so I am not clear on where this is heading?

 

[worsleyweb]

I think it would be useful if the term Justice could be defined in this case as I am not clear what justice actually looks like. A few times I thought that this point had been reached only for the campaign to continue. A few of the "guilty" parties have since passed away so I am not clear on where this is heading?

£

 

[St Helens Blue (Exiled)]

Just before Christmas I went on a works do.
Anyway to cut a long story short got talking to a retired police officer. Asked him what he was up to and he told me he is now involved in this enquiry.
He told me some stuff that I wont repeat however when he said "during interviews with these fans who were there they break down in tears,they relive every moment,every scream,every body.They can still smell the death"
He knows as we all do that alcohol was a factor however to blame the liverpool fans IMO is wrong. This was a senior police cock up in my opinion.Not the ranks on the ground,they did all they could to help but the halfwits making the decisions.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Stop getting so emotional and rude and understand what I'm saying. All sides are at fault. There is no need to be one of these zealots who attack anyone not on board with the crusade. Believing that the police were completely at fault and the fans contributed nothing to this catastrophe is just wilful ignorance.

When you're in a hole, it's good advice to stop digging. What I quoted of your post left little room for misunderstanding in my view. Hence my reaction.

I do agree with you that, as is typical in many disasters, there was a combination of events with some playing a greater part than others. But all the fans contributed to it was their presence on the day. I don't dispute that some didn't have tickets, some were drunk and some behaved like arseholes. But that's what fans did in those days (and still do) but it has absolutely no bearing on the reasons that 96 people died that day. To try to link the two, even if implicitly as you seemed to be doing, just perpetuates the lies of The Sun.

To answer the point about the safety certificate, my understanding was it was effectively an ongoing one but hadn't been updated to take into account changes made to the ground since 1981. So for that reason it wasn't valid and SWFC have to shoulder some blame. The FA didn't bother to check the safety certificate and there are questions as to whether Hillsborough was even a suitable venue.

But the overwhelming catalyst for the deaths was the failure of Duckenfield to use the largely effective operational management plan used by his predecessor. That would have almost certainly prevented a build up outside the turnstiles. The second critical failure was not monitoring or controlling the build-up of the crowd in the central pens, particularly when Gate C was opened. Then, once events had taken their course, Duckenfield told a blatant lie to Graham Kelly, which set off the cover-up. He also failed to manage the response of the emergency services, meaning some lives which were lost might have been saved.

According to Castiel, anyone who sympathises with the Hillsborough families in their quest for the truth is a "zealot" on a "crusade". How much evidence do these morons need before they accept that it was the police were responsible and that it is not the first time they have been guilty of lies and cover-ups - Stephen Lawrence, Birmingham Six etc.

Brilliant post, Prestwich Blue.

Couldn't agree more.
The families of the victims of Hillsborough deserve nothing but admiration, respect and support for the determined and dignified way they have tirelessly campaigned for justice and truth, despite the outrageous lies of the police and the tabloid press.
It is the very least those tragically lost deserve to have the facts emerge and the guilty named and shamed, although seemingly punished is too much to expect.
Some issues transcend mere football rivalry, and this is one of them.
May all those who perished rest in peace.

 

[TGR]

If anyone wants to really know about and understand corruption & cover up's in the police force I strongly recommend a book entitled:
'Judge For Yourself' written by L.A. Naylor. It is required reading for first year law students and when you have read it you fully understand why.
Genuinely shocking just what goes on.

 

[mancityvstoke]

I've never been to Hillsborough, so my question is, was it easy to see that there was a large amount of people in front of them? Couldn't the fans at the back just back off? Or back then was the stadium designs so poor that it was hard to tell exactly how many people were in front of them?

I've been in the Leppings lane end......I got crushed too. People just push forward with no consideration for who is at the front.

Things were so different back then too ....jibbing in etc

So many more people than in seats and no order at all. If everyone came in late then it could be chaos.

It can still be bad now.

Look at how it was at Anfield a few season ago in the semi final of the Carling Cup late arrivals (due to accident) and we got crushed outside.

Fair enough. Just seems logical that there's loads of people in front so the people by the exits would back off. Of course the people in the middle and front have no where to go.

Have you ever been to a football match from that era? (not having a go here)


Away games could be lively to say the least. Hillsborough was not designed very well and the paddocks could not be seen from outside the tunnel in.


Fans push from outside and cannot see what's happening inside.

The police should manage this.


We are talking hundreds of pissed excited fans. All pushing, unaware of the consequences.

 

[Academica]

I've been in the Leppings lane end......I got crushed too. People just push forward with no consideration for who is at the front.

Things were so different back then too ....jibbing in etc

So many more people than in seats and no order at all. If everyone came in late then it could be chaos.

It can still be bad now.

Look at how it was at Anfield a few season ago in the semi final of the Carling Cup late arrivals (due to accident) and we got crushed outside.

Fair enough. Just seems logical that there's loads of people in front so the people by the exits would back off. Of course the people in the middle and front have no where to go.

Have you ever been to a football match from that era? (not having a go here)


Away games could be lively to say the least. Hillsborough was not designed very well and the paddocks could not be seen from outside the tunnel in.


Fans push from outside and cannot see what's happening inside.

The police should manage this.


We are talking hundreds of pissed excited fans. All pushing, unaware of the consequences.

Remember a night match at Maine Road in the seventies against Liverpool, got caught in a crush outside the Kippax on the car park. Terrifying my feet didn't touch the floor for about 10 minutes and that was a huge open area. You were nearly always crushed into pens at away games at that time and there was a few times when you thought to your self if I go down here I ain't getting back up, you would lose shoes, get crushed into barriers, really just a disaster waiting to happen and on that day it did. Still haunts me now some of the pictures in the paper's and the cover up afterwards has been an absolute disgrace.

 

[shackattack]

the cover up by police,media and government officials still shocks me 24 yrs on. how no police ever broke ranks and spoke out about what actually happened is astounding. and inspector bettison who later became chief inspector on merseyside never even mentioned his involvement at the interview for the job. not only do you have the 96 victims themselves but you have their friends, families etc whose last memories of them at the game were tainted by the lies and mistruths that were spread. lots of accounts already in the public domain but truth is the police, F.A , and sheffield wednesday let the fans and families sadly down.