Homophobia in football

[ChicagoBlue]

But that's all from the perspective of someone who isn't gay. And that's my point. Who are we to say whether it's a good campaign or not. Clearly the idea behind it had support from those communities and they believed it to be a good way of promoting diversity and equality. It's not working because the focus is on those who aren't wearing the armband or defacing it rather than those who are, but as I said in my first post I didn't have an issue with all superheroes being white or all disney films having a handsome white man as the saviour whilst the poor women did whatever they could do be with him. Not our call.

I’m 60, almost 61. I have gay in my family and I know literally dozens and dozens of gay people. While many of them find a way to sport “the rainbow” to signal they’re gay, many, many more have no use for it at all!

Rather, they prefer to be seen for the person they are…right in front of you, right now…than rock up presenting you with their sexuality as their intro!

Being gay is no longer what it was a decade ago, and certainly not 50 years ago, and I think most gays I know just want to be treated “normally,” which really means equally. I have no problem with that whatsoever!

Last summer, on an LA layover, the female FO and I grabbed some Poke and headed to the beach for sunset. We sat there for a good hour or so, eating, chatting about life (and football…she’s a crazy Belgian fan!) and acting for all the world like we were a hetero couple having a sunset date.

As we were walking back to the hotel, I told her that it was the best “gay date” I had ever been on. She just smiled and said, “it’s not mine!” We laughed our asses off for a good few minutes, as I prodded her for more details!

Anyway, fast forward to this Fall and unbeknownst to me, she’s on my plane heading to Brussels, where she lives with her French wife. She comes upfront at the end of the flight to say “Hi!” and catch up, leaving my crew with a parting quip of “Have a great layover with him…he’s the best hetero date I’ve ever been on!”

Cool, funny, interesting, smart…that’s the way I like my friends…gay, straight, anything in between or even outside the lines…symbols be damned!

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

You just learning that now? Almost every bigot in society has at one time or another been justified by religion.

I would have thought that there were as many bigots not hiding behind anything other than their own bigotry. And I suspect there will be hypocrites wearing a badge or an armband who don't subscribe to what the message is trying to convey.

 

[youngbob]

I'm stunned that nobody's pointed out Morsy's blatant hypocrisy yet: refusing to wear the rainbow armband for his 'religious beliefs' despite wearing gambling sponsors for most of his career. I hate to say it as someone who's marrying into a Muslim family, but Morsy's actions this week remind me of a lot of young Muslim men I've met who are very selective in what they actually consider to be haram.

They're happy to drink alcohol and smoke every weekend, have sex out of wedlock as often as possible, gamble like mad on football, eat pork when their parents aren't looking, wear jewelry and get piercings, shave their faces every other week, they barely observe Ramadan out of guilt. But the second that it comes to homosexuality and queerness, that's when they suddenly care about protecting the social conservatism of Islam? Give it a fucking rest.

None of this rainbow armband stuff is part of an agenda, it's just basic human decency. As someone pointed out in this thread, the Premier League surely has more than a handful of gay or bisexual footballers, but none of them are publicly out. Why do people think that is? This is why the Rainbow Laces campaign exists. Imagine if you were a secretly gay Ipswich player who's just watched your captain refuse to support you? You'd be devastated.

On the flipside, what does it matter to us? So what if a handful of people feel a bit more supported by a sport that normally excludes them? There's tonnes of gay football fans. Why can't the rest of us be a bit more respectful of who they are? It's no skin off our arses. It doesn't change or affect anything about our lives but it could make an absolutely massive difference to a stranger who sits next to us at City. I don't see what the big deal is.

People like Morsy and Marc Guehi hide behind their 'religious beliefs' because they know they can't say publicly that they're prejudiced against gays. Because if they admitted their prejudices, they'd then have to explain that they think two men fucking makes them feel queasy. Which is fucking ridiculous. So they just say 'Oh, I don't support LGBT people for religious reasons' because we've decided that allowing 2,000-year-old fiction to affect the modern world is completely fine?

Nah.

 

[Mon Autre]

People getting mad about this and the people defending him getting mad about the Irish lad McClean who plays for Wrexham, freedom of opinion as long as it agrees eh

Sorry, but when you create false equivalences like this as though it's some kind of "gotcha" moment, you are really just displaying a complete lack of nuance.

I'm a gay football fan, I've been going to City since I was a kid in 1992 and I support James McClean's decision.

James McClean has explained, at length, why he cannot wear the poppy. The poppy is a symbol that supports an institution that massacred 26 civilians in his home town, in living memory of his parents, aunties, uncles etc. It should not be difficult to understand why he would not want to wear that. If people want to dislike James McClean for being a gobshite or a shithouse of a footballer then fine, but regarding the poppy, I've no problem with that at all.

Now let's look at Sam Morsy. Let's begin by saying I support his right to not wear a rainbow armband or indeed anything else he might be asked to wear. But does he betray his prejudices when he does that? Yes he does. And is ok to call out that bigotry and cite how disappointing it is? Yes it is. Being asked to wear a rainbow armband as a gesture to reassure gay fans (including those of his own club) that they are welcome and ought to feel safe watching the club shouldn't be a big deal. So many promising young footballers give up football in their early teens once they realise they might be gay due to attitudes in their dressing rooms and in the terraces. The game shouldn't be losing those players and it can only be a good thing for the sport to encourage an environment where EVERYONE can thrive and reach their potential. It's not telling people to go and be gay.

Sam Morsy used his religion as an excuse for his decision to say he'd prefer not to remind gay people that they are welcome. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any gay organisation massacring a town of unarmed civilians. Wearing a poppy and wearing an rainbow armband mean two completely different things.

He's been complicit in advertising gambling on his shirts in the past. So we know he's ok with proactively encouraging an industry that is destroying lives and driving people to suicide. He's decided his religious beliefs permit that. Cool. But he thinks his religious beliefs don't permit him to tell gay people they're welcome at football. He's happy to make a choice about which bits of his religion he wants to cherrypick in order to earn top dollar (as is his right) but also accommodate his own existing bigotry (also his right, but it makes him a bit of a dick and people will understandable point that out). He's a hypocrite and probable a bit of a homophobe.

I don't think any of the above should be that difficult to understand.

 

[Gazza]

If certain things are normal then why do they have to have special treatment?

 

[supercity88]

I’m 60, almost 61. I have gay in my family and I know literally dozens and dozens of gay people. While many of them find a way to sport “the rainbow” to signal they’re gay, many, many more have no use for it at all!

Rather, they prefer to be seen for the person they are…right in front of you, right now…than rock up presenting you with their sexuality as their intro!

Being gay is no longer what it was a decade ago, and certainly not 50 years ago, and I think most gays I know just want to be treated “normally,” which really means equally. I have no problem with that whatsoever!

Last summer, on an LA layover, the female FO and I grabbed some Poke and headed to the beach for sunset. We sat there for a good hour or so, eating, chatting about life (and football…she’s a crazy Belgian fan!) and acting for all the world like we were a hetero couple having a sunset date.

As we were walking back to the hotel, I told her that it was the best “gay date” I had ever been on. She just smiled and said, “it’s not mine!” We laughed our asses off for a good few minutes, as I prodded her for more details!

Anyway, fast forward to this Fall and unbeknownst to me, she’s on my plane heading to Brussels, where she lives with her French wife. She comes upfront at the end of the flight to say “Hi!” and catch up, leaving my crew with a parting quip of “Have a great layover with him…he’s the best hetero date I’ve ever been on!”

Cool, funny, interesting, smart…that’s the way I like my friends…gay, straight, anything in between or even outside the lines…symbols be damned!

Lovely story but again, this isn't about you or how you interact with people. There is still a culture of homophobia and racism in football. Regardless of the fact society might have moved on it's still an issue in football in this country and around the world.

I strongly believe that grouping people only leads to more problems than solutions. It gives people the impression that one group is more important than others. Black lives matter means white lives don't, apparently. So the message gets lost.

But equally you have to try and do something to promote equality and inclusion in the game because why would people who are gay or transgender want to go and watch or play football when there's so much abuse in it. If there's something promoting equality in the game they're more likely to connect with it and that's all this is trying to achieve.

Maybe it needs to be broken down to a more individual level so people don't get so offended and take a "then v us" mindset. Who knows.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Lovely story but again, this isn't about you or how you interact with people. There is still a culture of homophobia and racism in football. Regardless of the fact society might have moved on it's still an issue in football in this country and around the world.

I strongly believe that grouping people only leads to more problems than solutions. It gives people the impression that one group is more important than others. Black lives matter means white lives don't, apparently. So the message gets lost.

But equally you have to try and do something to promote equality and inclusion in the game because why would people who are gay or transgender want to go and watch or play football when there's so much abuse in it. If there's something promoting equality in the game they're more likely to connect with it and that's all this is trying to achieve.

Maybe it needs to be broken down to a more individual level so people don't get so offended and take a "then v us" mindset. Who knows.

At this point in our evolution, with the general acceptance of homosexuality in Western society, who are you winning over by continuing to beat people over the head with the same old stick, or should that be schtick?!

You can’t force it on people.

 

[No.8]

Sorry, but when you create false equivalences like this as though it's some kind of "gotcha" moment, you are really just displaying a complete lack of nuance.

I'm a gay football fan, I've been going to City since I was a kid in 1992 and I support James McClean's decision.

James McClean has explained, at length, why he cannot wear the poppy. The poppy is a symbol that supports an institution that massacred 26 civilians in his home town, in living memory of his parents, aunties, uncles etc. It should not be difficult to understand why he would not want to wear that. If people want to dislike James McClean for being a gobshite or a shithouse of a footballer then fine, but regarding the poppy, I've no problem with that at all.

Now let's look at Sam Morsy. Let's begin by saying I support his right to not wear a rainbow armband or indeed anything else he might be asked to wear. But does he betray his prejudices when he does that? Yes he does. And is ok to call out that bigotry and cite how disappointing it is? Yes it is. Being asked to wear a rainbow armband as a gesture to reassure gay fans (including those of his own club) that they are welcome and ought to feel safe watching the club shouldn't be a big deal. So many promising young footballers give up football in their early teens once they realise they might be gay due to attitudes in their dressing rooms and in the terraces. The game shouldn't be losing those players and it can only be a good thing for the sport to encourage an environment where EVERYONE can thrive and reach their potential. It's not telling people to go and be gay.

Sam Morsy used his religion as an excuse for his decision to say he'd prefer not to remind gay people that they are welcome. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any gay organisation massacring a town of unarmed civilians. Wearing a poppy and wearing an rainbow armband mean two completely different things.

He's been complicit in advertising gambling on his shirts in the past. So we know he's ok with proactively encouraging an industry that is destroying lives and driving people to suicide. He's decided his religious beliefs permit that. Cool. But he thinks his religious beliefs don't permit him to tell gay people they're welcome at football. He's happy to make a choice about which bits of his religion he wants to cherrypick in order to earn top dollar (as is his right) but also accommodate his own existing bigotry (also his right, but it makes him a bit of a dick and people will understandable point that out). He's a hypocrite and probable a bit of a homophobe.

I don't think any of the above should be that difficult to understand.

James McLean is disliked for his open support of a terrorist organisation that routinely bombed and killed innocent civilians for decades.

 

[Mon Autre]

James McLean is disliked for his open support of a terrorist organisation that routinely bombed and killed innocent civilians for decades.

Hate him for that too then. It's got nothing to do with wearing poppies Vs wearing rainbow armbands though.

 

[Mon Autre]

At this point in our evolution, with the general acceptance of homosexuality in Western society, who are you winning over by continuing to beat people over the head with the same old stick, or should that be schtick?!

You can’t force it on people.

I don't think rainbow laces and armbands are necessarily about winning over homophobes though. It's about making space for more people to enjoy the game by making them feel safe and welcome. Homophobes will always exist but these initiatives are useful in drowning out their voices with positive messaging

 

[youngbob]

If certain things are normal then why do they have to have special treatment?

Do you give to charity? Or have you ever?

 

[supercity88]

At this point in our evolution, with the general acceptance of homosexuality in Western society, who are you winning over by continuing to beat people over the head with the same old stick, or should that be schtick?!

You can’t force it on people.

There's clearly not a general acceptance in football. And judging by a lot of posts on here, and that I've had through watsapp groups, I'm not sure society is as tolerant as it might appear either.

We're not getting beaten over the head with it. It's not rammed down our throats continuously. It's a rainbow armband on the captain's arm. That's it. If people feel that's too much then clearly there isn't the acceptance or tolerance in football or indeed society.

You say you have friends who are gay and that you are tolerant. But there's someone on this thread who is gay and telling you their position on the matter and like I said, it's simply about showing people who are LGBTQ that football is inclusive so they play the game and/or watch it. Nothing drastic or offensive in that at all.

 

[Gazza]

There's clearly not a general acceptance in football. And judging by a lot of posts on here, and that I've had through watsapp groups, I'm not sure society is as tolerant as it might appear either.

We're not getting beaten over the head with it. It's not rammed down our throats continuously. It's a rainbow armband on the captain's arm. That's it. If people feel that's too much then clearly there isn't the acceptance or tolerance in football or indeed society.

You say you have friends who are gay and that you are tolerant. But there's someone on this thread who is gay and telling you their position on the matter and like I said, it's simply about showing people who are LGBTQ that football is inclusive so they play the game and/or watch it. Nothing drastic or offensive in that at all.

Tolerance of everything eventually results in tolerance of nothing.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

If certain things are normal then why do they have to have special treatment?

Straight lives matter

 

[Mon Autre]

Tolerance of everything eventually results in tolerance of nothing.

Is your advice that we don't tolerate gay people then?

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

I’m 60, almost 61. I have gay in my family and I know literally dozens and dozens of gay people. While many of them find a way to sport “the rainbow” to signal they’re gay, many, many more have no use for it at all!

Rather, they prefer to be seen for the person they are…right in front of you, right now…than rock up presenting you with their sexuality as their intro!

Being gay is no longer what it was a decade ago, and certainly not 50 years ago, and I think most gays I know just want to be treated “normally,” which really means equally. I have no problem with that whatsoever!

Last summer, on an LA layover, the female FO and I grabbed some Poke and headed to the beach for sunset. We sat there for a good hour or so, eating, chatting about life (and football…she’s a crazy Belgian fan!) and acting for all the world like we were a hetero couple having a sunset date.

As we were walking back to the hotel, I told her that it was the best “gay date” I had ever been on. She just smiled and said, “it’s not mine!” We laughed our asses off for a good few minutes, as I prodded her for more details!

Anyway, fast forward to this Fall and unbeknownst to me, she’s on my plane heading to Brussels, where she lives with her French wife. She comes upfront at the end of the flight to say “Hi!” and catch up, leaving my crew with a parting quip of “Have a great layover with him…he’s the best hetero date I’ve ever been on!”

Cool, funny, interesting, smart…that’s the way I like my friends…gay, straight, anything in between or even outside the lines…symbols be damned!

I have a pal who is openly gay and is a fanatical United fan who has had a season ticket at the swamp for decades. He told me he was “fed up with all the LGBT stuff because the only label he wanted to carry was: “Manchester United supporter,”

 

[youngbob]

Tolerance of everything eventually results in tolerance of nothing.

Jesus Christ, this means absolutely nothing.

 

[Gazza]

Is your advice that we don't tolerate gay people then?

Jesus Christ, this means absolutely nothing.

No offense is meant as both my posts were written as to be neutral and not aimed at a particular group or practice and only someone looking to be offended would think otherwise.

Think about it - If you're trying to defend the tolerance of something/anything then you naturally become less tolerant of the things that attack it, until you're finally tolerant of nothing other the original subject.

 

[Gazza]

Jesus Christ, this means absolutely nothing.

Some people don't tolerate blasphemy.

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

Not at all. In fact, when King Charles passes away, and everyone stands at attention during the minute of silence, maybe Akanji can moon the Colin Bell stand. How do you think would go over? On second thought, don't answer that.

Point is teams do things together for a reason, performative or no. That's the point of being on a team. You don't moan and complain -- you are part of the team. You do what the team asks whether you like it or not, or whether it goes against your "beliefs" or not, or you get off the team. You aren't an individual. Your individuality has no place in this. You sacrifice it. You don't want to wear the armband? There's the door. Sit out the match.

And if you as a fan don't like the team or league's performative BS, stop following it. Stop bitching and boycott it if you feel so strongly. Stand up for your "beliefs." That's what happens over here.

Any of you follow the national anthem fiasco in women's US football? I don't recall any of you standing up and defending Megan Rapinoe.

So it was ok all those years ago when England played in Berlin and the whole team had to give the Nazi salute because they were told too?