How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

paulchapo said:
Already in what? We officially joined the EU January 1st 1973. We were a member of OEEC from 1961.
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Heath took us into the EEC without a referendum ... despite the fact it was deemed a 'constitutional change' and should've been put to the nation. Wilsons Govt recognised this and held a vote.


Labour , once again sorting out Tory shite.
 
paulchapo said:
Of course they don't want it to be a success as otherwise other countries night want to leave. I was a kid in school when the vote to join was happening. It was supposed to be all about trade, making it easier to do so and goods cheaper. I remember teachers saying what a great thing it was. I believe it was called the common market then and in principle it certainly sounded a great idea. The problem is it then evolved from making trade easier to wanting to make every country governed from Brussels with less and less power to run themselves. It's a great shame it came to this but it is what it is, we'll see how it pans out.
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They\ve wrapped up free trade with political bureaucracy, parliamentary wind baggery, even an EU foreign minister. They were well on the way to a police force and an army. I suppose the latter has returned to the marshlands of Eastern Europe now that the British Army can't be called on as readily. We signed up for free trade, the common market, a great idea, and then careerist politicians, who probably would have been fucked off by their own electorate, see the main chance and we have not one but two 'hot air' chambers - Brussels and Strasbourg. And every one of those MEPs claiming eye-watering amounts of money from doing what they were elected to do - make the fuckin' behemoth even more of a juggernaut.
 
paulchapo said:
It's not as simple as that though is it? Brexit has never got going because of infighting and then a global shutdown for two years. You can't leave something you've been tied to for fifty years without hiccups. Also vast numbers of politicians didn't want it so will do anything to ensure it fails as they want a return. They never actually thought the vote would be to leave either so were Ill prepared when it did.

Every country is suffering economically but here everything is blamed on brexit.its an easy excuse, just as from the other side everything was blamed on being in the EU when we were in it.

There is one thing I do know. Large numbers of people in the UK were poor before joining what was then the common market, poor during the period we were in it, will be poor out of it and poor if we rejoin. Vast areas in the country had no real prospects that their lives were ever going to improve. In those areas the vote to leave was more a vote against the sneering establishment who had ignored them for decades.
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Think your last sentence is the key to it. The issue is which sneering establishment is it that actually has been ignoring them for decades. I’d argue a lot of worker protection laws and investment in deprived areas came far more from the EU than it did domestic governments but it’s the latter that always retained the power to be able to convince people it wasn’t them.

The EU governing body, due to sitting above everyone, always had the ability of implementing laws that benefitted citizens without worrying as much about the political implications or motivations of domestic governments. I get the rhetoric to an extent of it being undemocratic (although I’d strongly argue it always was at its core, just on a wider scale), giving up some of that domestic control ultimately was the best thing and one of the main points about it though.
 
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meltonblue said:
Think your last sentence is the key to it. The issue is which sneering establishment is it that actually has been ignoring them for decades. I’d argue a lot of worker protection laws and investment in deprived areas came far more from the EU than it did domestic governments but it’s the latter that always retained the power to be able to convince people it wasn’t them.

The EU governing body, due to sitting above everyone, always had the ability of implementing laws that benefitted citizens without worrying as much about the political implications or motivations of domestic governments. I get the rhetoric to an extent of it being undemocratic (although I’d strongly argue it always was at its core, just on a wider scale), giving up some of that domestic control ultimately was the best thing and one of the main points about it though.
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Yeah - the land owner and mill owner convinced the workers that organising was their enemy and them bringing in steam driven ploughs and water driven spinning machines was in fact good for them as it would free some of them up from even having to come to work. ( destitution was of course the alternative )

Then the land owner worried them because the Govt wanted to step him and strip him of his local militia and instead form a National Army - like that was somehow for the greater good............

Its a class riven forelock tugging portion of the population that remain the pliable rump they need
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
They\ve wrapped up free trade with political bureaucracy, parliamentary wind baggery, even an EU foreign minister. They were well on the way to a police force and an army. I suppose the latter has returned to the marshlands of Eastern Europe now that the British Army can't be called on as readily. We signed up for free trade, the common market, a great idea, and then careerist politicians, who probably would have been fucked off by their own electorate, see the main chance and we have not one but two 'hot air' chambers - Brussels and Strasbourg. And every one of those MEPs claiming eye-watering amounts of money from doing what they were elected to do - make the fuckin' behemoth even more of a juggernaut.
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Oh come on, this was the sort of crap that won the vote.
 
paulchapo said:
Of course they don't want it to be a success as otherwise other countries night want to leave. I was a kid in school when the vote to join was happening. It was supposed to be all about trade, making it easier to do so and goods cheaper. I remember teachers saying what a great thing it was. I believe it was called the common market then and in principle it certainly sounded a great idea. The problem is it then evolved from making trade easier to wanting to make every country governed from Brussels with less and less power to run themselves. It's a great shame it came to this but it is what it is, we'll see how it pans out.
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Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
They\ve wrapped up free trade with political bureaucracy, parliamentary wind baggery, even an EU foreign minister. They were well on the way to a police force and an army. I suppose the latter has returned to the marshlands of Eastern Europe now that the British Army can't be called on as readily. We signed up for free trade, the common market, a great idea, and then careerist politicians, who probably would have been fucked off by their own electorate, see the main chance and we have not one but two 'hot air' chambers - Brussels and Strasbourg. And every one of those MEPs claiming eye-watering amounts of money from doing what they were elected to do - make the fuckin' behemoth even more of a juggernaut.
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We held all the cards......IMG_2367.PNG
 
Even CBI pointing out that businesses spend a lot of money complying with EU regs on exports, so daft to diverge.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
We’ve completely fucking blown it.
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Unless you’re going for the Singapore-on-Thames model on steroids, and there doesn’t appear to be the appetite for that, neither in the country nor, I’d hazard, even in the Conservative Party, then anything else is but a painful fudge. The Conservative Party is glacially coming to its senses, at least in some quarter, and I suspect that there will be gradual rapprochement with the EU in the next two years, which should then set the course for the next government to follow.
 
Gabriel said:
Unless you’re going for the Singapore-on-Thames model on steroids, and there doesn’t appear to be the appetite for that, neither in the country nor, I’d hazard, even in the Conservative Party, then anything else is but a painful fudge. The Conservative Party is glacially coming to its senses, at least in some quarter, and I suspect that there will be gradual rapprochement with the EU in the next two years, which should then set the course for the next government to follow.
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It’ll be a long and painful road back.
 
Gabriel said:
Unless you’re going for the Singapore-on-Thames model on steroids, and there doesn’t appear to be the appetite for that, neither in the country nor, I’d hazard, even in the Conservative Party, then anything else is but a painful fudge. The Conservative Party is glacially coming to its senses, at least in some quarter, and I suspect that there will be gradual rapprochement with the EU in the next two years, which should then set the course for the next government to follow.
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but no political party wants to rejoin.
 
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